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Ever blade backwards?

Fat Dan

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I have an old 46 model No. 311 Adams motor grader it has an IH TD-9 motor and Oliver 80 Stranded Transmission with a high/low EOA 35 and because it is all gear driven the mo-board can turn around and around without stopping. Well the peddle breaks are hydraulic but they don't work.
Eng s/n TDCBM-3828 engine replaced with UDCBM-7395 has transmission s/n 4328H EOA s/n 69045
Because I can turn my mo-board completely backwards I thought I'd try my hand at bladding backwards. OMG I'm not that good going forward yet but that was other worldly stuff there. I was a gluten for punishment because I was on an incline and it had a dip at the end of the driveway. That can give a guy a headache thinking all backwards. Just wondering if anyone ever got good at bladding backwards?
mvphoto12410.jpg post-114211-0-55552700-1424794021.jpg post-114211-0-59020800-1424135606.jpg post-114211-0-73424000-1421005920.jpg
 

ovrszd

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I commonly back drag short distances. Never tried turning the moldboard around and going backward cutting.

A modern articulating grader would be much better at it than your rigid framed machine!!!!

An elderly friend of mine that ran a blade for 40 years decided one Spring he would turn the moldboard around and use the back side of the blade going forward. Just wanted to smooth rutted roads. Destroyed the nuts and threads on the cutting edge bolts. Had to remove most of them with a cutting torch. Not such a great idea after all......
 

Welder Dave

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I think it was on here a few years ago where a very accomplished operator who worked at Cat explained the blade will turn 360 deg's for a reason. It can be turned around to grade in reverse. Said some ditch cleaning worked better turning the blade around and going in reverse. Talking with equipment operators they generally say the finish grader requires the most skill of all machines. It takes years to get proficient with most machines but a grader can be very intimidating with a multitude of controls staring at you.
 

Fat Dan

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Alaska
I read on an Adams brochure (somewhere) an advertisement showing the ability to rotate the blade all the way around which gave me the idea to blade backwards. Yet, because one can doesn't mean one should; I can see now there is ample room for catastrophic damage to the machine and the project, so I must agree if the operator is not properly qualified bladding backwards is not a very good idea. I would have to go study the way the Mo-board is attached but if memory serves (and that seal is starting to leak too) but I think bladding backwards would put more shear and tension stress on the gear housing that rotates circle side to side - I'm thinking that is not a good thing. The stress should be under tension from the eye-bolt & U-bolt on the nose. Therefore, I think only under extreme conditions should backwards bladding be attempted and by well qualified operator and then only in a light application. Right tools for the right jobs.
Thanks for your input everyone it was most insightful and made me rethink my stance on bladding backwards.
 

Welder Dave

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Suggest you look in the archives on here for anything from Randy Krieg and/or backwards grading. He is listed as a test pilot/operator at Caterpillars Tuscon proving grounds in Arizona.

All Those Teeth

Remember guys the circle has teeth 360 degrees. Those back teeth aren’t for looks, they’re made to be used. The practice of finishing a cul-de-sac in reverse or maybe even getting it close (my choice) makes great sense if you’re not running an all wheel drive machine. The forces created by the moldboard angle and laterally moving material over comes the front tires traction coefficient many times. It only takes about 60 seconds to turn it around. I can turn our 16 foot moldboard on our 14H around in about 70 seconds, just over a minute. That time includes the time spent pulling the pin and repositioning the linkbar. I always do it on the right side, I put the pin in the far right hole, swing the drawbar, circle and moldboard up beside the machine with the moldboard facing straight up at the sky, circle the moldboard clockwise and side-shift the left end out over the top of the right front tire completely retracting the cylinder (H Series), then retract the left lift cylinder, extend the right lift cylinder, keep rotating clockwise and retracting the centershift cylinder at the same time. It’s all simultaneous motion. This brings the right end of the moldboard (soon to become the left) under the S bend in the main frame while the left end (soon to become the right) is rolling right down behind and beside the right front tire. As soon as I get the moldboard back under the main frame I reposition the linkage if necessary. If the machine is equipped with grade/slope control then the cable to the rotation sensor has to be specially routed or it will get torn right in half. Every machine I operate I take the time to reroute the cable so that it’s possible to turn the circle and moldboard around. The picture below shows the way I generally park the machine at night; circle and moldboard facing back with the tires off the ground. This position exposes the front circle drive teeth so we can apply grease every day (like the book says). These are the teeth that are being used 99% of the time we’re working. Every couple days I scrap off the old dirty grease using a drywall spatula and every couple weeks I wash the teeth with solvent. This positioning also gets the weight off the tires at night. Don’t want any flat spots in the tires come morning. Many times we get in and have to start finishing to hubs first thing in the morning. In the last training class I taught I made it manditory to graduate. They had to be able to proficiently reposition the linkage, clean the top of the moldboard using the linkage, pull a back slope and park the machine at night with the moldboard facing back.

In the other pictures, which are dark, but if you look closely you can see the moldboard is turned around on the 16M. This works great for squeegeeing the water on top of the ice and filling the small holes and accelerating the freeze time. You can rub the ice (snow & water mixture) and not cut into it. Turning the moldboard around on this 16M with a 2 foot extension requires a little more caution and it helps if you run the front tires up on a pile, this makes it easier to swing the moldboard extension under the steps. It would be real easy to tear the steps right off the machine if you don’t know what you’re doing. That applies to any grader not just the 16M.

I also turn the moldboard around for finishing away from bridge abutments and will explain this more in detail later. I turn it around and articulate for cleaning some wet ditches also. Like I said they put those teeth there for a reason.

I will photograph this entire procedure step by step when I get time and post it. I will also add more to this thread in general, but right now I have to get ready to travel again.

This part is for all you younger guys that like adventure; I’m actually on my two weeks R&R from the Chevron project right now, but got a phone call yesterday morning. We were just awarded a hazardous cleanup project off the Northern coast of Alaska. It’s an old “Defense Early Warning” radar site. So I have to go get baseline blood work done today then spend the next 4 days in training, yeap right through the weekend so that we can be ready to fly back to Deadhorse the first of next week. We are going to haul the material 50 miles across the sea ice back to Prudhoe Bay where it will be put in special containment. I look at this as another great adventure, which I get to be a part of and the pay is fantastic (so is the food). They don’t call me to go on these details because they like the way I look or the things I say, they call me for one reason and one reason only; because I can operate a motor grader. My father told me over 30 years ago while I was riding in a grader with him and watching his every move, “Get good on one of these son and you will never have to look for a job”. That statement has rung true so many times in my life that I’ve lost count. It’s a great career! Don’t ever pass up the chance to get on one.

Regards, Randy

Attached Files:
Last edited: Mar 4, 2009
Randy Krieg, Mar 4, 2009 Report
 

Welder Dave

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Took me long enough

But unfortunately I don’t get to spend as much time in a grader anymore. :mad:

We just started this road realignment project, this section I’m presently working on is just the road to our water pump where we load the water truck, and it’s an old powerline right of way that hasn’t seen a motor grader in a while. Since we’ll be hauling several hundred loads across this over the next couple months I told the owners if I can take water from your lake I’ll rebuild your road. Some of the ditches are wet and some…well; I’ll just let you look at the pictures. This is nearly the same procedure just done for differing reasons. I hate bouncing my tires over boulders and it never fails they find their way under your tandem tires no matter how careful you are and when they do!!! Have you ever seen the guy waving the checkered flag at the end of a Nascar race, :beatsme well that’s about what the end of the moldboard in the ditch looks when one of these rocks maneuvers it’s way under the tandem tires. Not nearly as glorious as the checkered flag, more like Black Flagged.
These alluvial materials are very common in this area and trust me it makes great road base it’s just a little tricky to deal with. It’s free draining and non frost susceptible, which is extremely critical in this climate. I’ve been dealing with this stuff for years so I use the grader as a mobile screening plant, processing machine and finishing machine. I start out dry so I can shake out the goodies and comb out the bones, then once I hide the junk I start processing with water. I do one side at a time so I’m not overwhelmed with rocks and brush. I've been having computer/internet problems so I'm amazed I got this up, I'll try to finish with the other shots tonight.......
Randy

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Welder Dave

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The Rest of the Story

Okay what I originally promised to put on here is how I turn the moldboard 180 degrees. So here are the pictures and a brief description. I do the vast majority of my backsloping and ditch cleaning on the right side so I always put the sideshift anchor in the left mounting holes. This SS mount position is very important for safely clearing the right front tire during this 180 procedure. To perform this really well there are three important positioning functions which must take place before you ever even ground the moldboard to pull the pin. The first two are vital if you ever plan to do this with the moldboard sitting on new asphalt. That’s why I kept trying to perfect this since I am constantly having to reposition the linkbar for shouldering while sitting on day old pavement.

First; tip the moldboard all the way back which brings the board up close to the circle and drawbar, this puts the drawbar at a negative angle when the moldboard is grounded and extends the lift cylinder rods further out of the barrel. This is important or you’ll run out of left lift cylinder travel before the linkbar reaches alignment with the far right pin position. Second; extend the centershift cylinder all the way to the right before grounding the moldboard. Again you’ll be using this cylinder’s retracting travel when you’re repositioning the linkage. (see photos) If you don’t extend it before grounding then you won’t be able to retract it when you’re repositioning the linkage, things get really ugly when you don’t use the centershift simultaneously with the lift cylinders. Better yet you can just leave the lift cylinders in float and just retract the centershift cylinder to reposition the linkage. Third; I sideshift all the way to the right before grounding the moldboard and pulling the pin. This is so I can use centershift to bring the moldboard off the ground and not dig the left corner of the moldboard in to the ground. Remember you don’t have any left lift cylinder travel to speak of once the linkage repositioning is done. So the quickest way to get the moldboard up off the ground is centershift. You just got done retracting the centershift part way during repositioning the pin now you extend again. Extending the centershift cylinder now causes the lift cylinders to swing sideways through an arc. The lift cylinders swinging through an arc lifts the drawbar, circle & moldboard (DCM) up and picks the moldboard right off the ground. As soon as the moldboard clears the ground I start circling clockwise and retracting the right lift cylinder. About the time the centershift becomes fully extended I switch to extending the left lift cylinder while still circling clockwise and retracting the right cylinder. Once the right is fully retracted and the left is fully extended I continue circling clockwise until the right end of the moldboard is nearly touching the ground, at this point I start sideshifting left and slowly cracking the circle clockwise still, this keeps the right end of the moldboard (backside) close to the ground as the left end extends right out over top of the right front tire. Once the moldboard is side shifted left (actually all the way forward in this position) I simultaneously keep circling clockwise retracting the left lift cylinder and extending the right lift cylinder. You have to time your circle rotation with you cylinder extension and retraction perfectly or you’ll dig the moldboard in the ground or worse, get hung up in the step/ladder. Done right you can clear the step, ground and right front tire simultaneously. Done wrong you can take out a headlight, tear off a step, blow a tire and tear up some ground/asphalt!!! As soon as the moldboard is turned 180 and back under the main frame I fully retract the centershift cylinder so I can extend it this time as I reposition the linkage back to center or the second hole. Takes me about 70 seconds to complete this maneuver on a 14G or H with a 16 foot moldboard. As I stated earlier all my students two years ago had to complete this maneuver before they could get their training certificate.
:cool2

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Fat Dan

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Wow! Thanks for the education. Great pictures and very informative post. It looks like you have put an hour or two behind a blade. Again thank you for your expert advice and illuminating narrative.
I never ran a grader before but found this one a few years back that had a bad case of the-all-overs. When I went to look at it, it looked to be a big pass. Then I seen a faded unit number "ARC 971" ARC or Alaska Road Commission which was pre DOT, Department of Transportation. With that knowledge I did a little digging and found the 1946 the Adams was purchased by the Territory of Alaska. However, I believe the contracts were drawn up in 1944. The Adams spent most of its formative years between Hope, Seward, Homer and Whittier (a top secret Naval port back then) on the Keni Peninsula. When Alaska became a State in 1959 the Adams was given a title and it was transferred to the State of Alaska. In 1969, the title was transferred into privet hands. It was most likely the Adams was originally sold as military surplus because Alaska's infrastructure was woefully inadequate until the mid 50's. The S/N TDCBM-3828 (TD9) where M (I believe) denotes military I forgot what the CB meant. Adams original color was a lighter yellow than Caterpillar but because this equipment was earmarked for a State, Territory or municipality it was painted this pumpkin vomit orange
M311 Adames 1946e.jpg
At first I thought this is just an old tired piece of iron then I thought the history behind this equipment is more important and that's what needs to be preserved so here I am.
Last Adams ever made Last adams made.jpg this is a better representation of the Adams Color Last adams madea.jpg
 

John C.

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I've know a lot of dozer drivers who could only run a smooth pass by putting the blade in float, put the machine in reverse and let the engine go to full throttle.
Depending on the grader, the pinion gear is on the inside of the circle and pulling in reverse might, if the circle is not adjusted properly, get looser. The other issue with rotating the blade all the way around is that a well used grader will have a well worn ring gear in the area where the blade usually is run at. Turn the blade all the way around and now you have unworn teeth of the ring gear possibly running tight or loose depending on the manufacturer of the grader.
 

rsherril

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I second what John C said. I'll add that a grader is designed for forward work. Randy stressed keeping the teeth in the circle lubed daily and the circle clean. He had a special case circumstance with ice roads, but still grading forward. Cleaning up cul-de-sacs with a grader IMO is done with helpers and other equipment. I carry a rake, shovel and a multi pronged fork for clean-up purposes. It helps to get out of the machine once in a while, (especially the older ones), and use some different muscles while clearing your head and a walk around machine inspection. That said it dosen't hurt to rotate the blade 360 and observe the condition of the table circle interaction. I would suggest a man on the ground to watch for problems while you do that. Good luck with your find!!!
 

Welder Dave

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Working for Cat I think Randy is well aware of what the machines are capable of doing. For some applications turning the blade around and going backwards does the best job. He wasn't talking about using a 40 year old worn out grader. Just showing what a modern well maintained grader can do.
 

John C.

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Maybe Randy Kraig can do that. Just how many other grader operators do you think should even try that kind of stuff. Also remember he was working as much for the marketing department as the engineering department. If I saw someone on my spread trying to grade backwards, I'd have to inform him that he was too good for my operation and let him know I'd give him a good recommendation for his next employment.
 

Welder Dave

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I'm sure there are other operators that are more than capable of grading backwards. There has to be tens of thousands of grader operators in N. America and even worldwide. I don't think Randy Krieg is suggesting grading miles of ditches going in reverse, just showing some jobs can be done better/easier in reverse. Dismissing Randy Krieg because he worked for Cat would be like dismissing Nige because he worked for Cat. Randy wrote the H series applications guide and was involved in the development of the M series. There are some guys that can do amazing things with excavators too. I don't know why anyone would get rid of an operator that was too good.
 
Last edited:

Birken Vogt

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I wonder if it might be useful if there is no place to turn around and you would rather be getting work done in both directions than backing to the starting place with the blade lifted.
 

cuttin edge

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I've know a lot of dozer drivers who could only run a smooth pass by putting the blade in float, put the machine in reverse and let the engine go to full throttle.
Depending on the grader, the pinion gear is on the inside of the circle and pulling in reverse might, if the circle is not adjusted properly, get looser. The other issue with rotating the blade all the way around is that a well used grader will have a well worn ring gear in the area where the blade usually is run at. Turn the blade all the way around and now you have unworn teeth of the ring gear possibly running tight or loose depending on the manufacturer of the grader.
Back dragging with the blade on float. I was told once that if I was going to do that, the company could have saved a lot of money and got a steel beam to drag around instead of a tractor. In the same breath, I was told that back dragging wears the back of the blade unnecessarily. A little back dragging is OK, but the front of the blade is the business end. That being said, I have tried grading backwards, but seeing how your rear wheels are meant to stabilize your machine, and you need to look ahead to see what you're grading....... I sometimes back drag extra material, but I like going forward not back
 

rsherril

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I wonder if it might be useful if there is no place to turn around and you would rather be getting work done in both directions than backing to the starting place with the blade lifted.
For sure, however with the advent of the articulated machine, (which CAT was very late coming around to), turning around is not much of a problem. My grading experience started in the Rocky Mountains west of Denver in 1972. Park County consisted of two terraine types, twisty narrow roads in mountain subdivisions with no standards before county take over and wide open South Park known for straight roads and snow drifts. Austin Western was what I learned on. CAT knuckle busters were favored in the park. I ended up with experience on both, but never bladed backwards.

Fast forward 25 yrs and I find myself taking care of roads in Canyon Country. The old tractor and rear blade ain't
doing the job, so when I find that then 30 yr. old 570A sitting on the trade in lot I jump on it, probably too fast.
So eleven years later that "worn out" machine has paid for itself and my hard earned education. Thank you to the many people on this forum, including Randy Kreig, who have contributed to this education especially when I have I have been discouraged.
Concerning Mr Kreig, I often wonder if that job he took at CAT that he couldn't talk about, involved eliminating the operator. I would rather think he helped bring back the H style machine.
 

cuttin edge

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For sure, however with the advent of the articulated machine, (which CAT was very late coming around to), turning around is not much of a problem. My grading experience started in the Rocky Mountains west of Denver in 1972. Park County consisted of two terraine types, twisty narrow roads in mountain subdivisions with no standards before county take over and wide open South Park known for straight roads and snow drifts. Austin Western was what I learned on. CAT knuckle busters were favored in the park. I ended up with experience on both, but never bladed backwards.

Fast forward 25 yrs and I find myself taking care of roads in Canyon Country. The old tractor and rear blade ain't
doing the job, so when I find that then 30 yr. old 570A sitting on the trade in lot I jump on it, probably too fast.
So eleven years later that "worn out" machine has paid for itself and my hard earned education. Thank you to the many people on this forum, including Randy Kreig, who have contributed to this education especially when I have I have been discouraged.
Concerning Mr Kreig, I often wonder if that job he took at CAT that he couldn't talk about, involved eliminating the operator. I would rather think he helped bring back the H style machine.
Eliminating the operator... There will always be some skill involved, and a lot of common sense. Even with experience, my eyes can't compete with GPS, but you still have to understand grading and road building. Unfortunately the lack of interest in the trade and these so called operator schools pumping out guys and gals that know it all and won't learn from experienced guys. There might not be any operators left in 40 or 50 years
 

John C.

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With the speed of new technology now days, I'm thinking less that ten.
 
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