Electricians wanted

[doublewide]

"Nearly all equipment used must be "LISTED" as in example UL. Laboratory listing is contingent on following manufacturer's instructions. …..In post 13 the copper wire handle tie is not "LISTED" therefore not acceptable."

Good points there Willie B. This would be a better solution;

 

[doublewide]

"Those wire nuts are not tight enough to earn listing. Many manufacturers instruct tighten until two full spirals of twist are visible outside the wire nut."

Another good point. I should of looked closer at that picture before I stole it!
I generally group my conductors together, grip the bare ends with my linemans, and twist together as you said 2 or 3 twists, and then add the wire nut. That way the integrity of the splice is not dependent on the wire nut.

 

[doublewide]

Or fire anywhere in the circuit. The neutral is the device used to get 120 volts from a 240 volt source. In the event of neutral failure 240 volts will be divided unequally. 120 volt loads might get 200 volts, or 40 volts. 40 volts in a motor will give weak magnetic field, little magnetic impedance, very high amperage, likely the motor won't turn, locked rotor will make for high amperage and subsequent meltdown. High voltage ruins electronics, and lighting.

I'm pretty sure this is what you mean?

It can be seen by the circuits that with any multi wire branch circuit, if the neutral is opened, the series circuit then becomes a parallel circuit and the voltage divides in a different manner. Quickly resulting in appliance damage or possibly fire.

 

[Willie B]

Yes. A series circuit divides voltage applied. The greater resistance takes the greater share of voltage. Whether your resistors are light bulbs, heaters, or motors, the half circuit with most load, (least resistance) gets less voltage. Add an identical resistor in parallel with the bottom resistor your sketch is correct. Add one in series with the top resistor, your sketch will be correct.
As drawn, with equal resistance, each gets 120 volts.

It is very common in overhead services to lose the neutral. It is exposed to weather, and corrodes.
It is the cable used to support the other conductors, so storm damage, it is the first to go.
Underground services; frost lifts the post a meter might be mounted on a little each year. Eventually, it stretches the conductors, pulls them out of the terminal.
Neutral failure is pretty common. 50 years ago we mostly had incandescent lighting. Damage was often limited to blown bulbs. These days electronics are plentiful. They do not do well!

 

[petepilot]

what would be wrong with this ? I want to run a 240 volt under ground feed under my driveway to approx. a 140' beyond. since i already have 240 going under to the well why could i not tie in to the well feed line and not have to dig a trench across the drive? well feed is substantial wire

 

[Aarons81]

what would be wrong with this ? I want to run a 240 volt under ground feed under my driveway to approx. a 140' beyond. since i already have 240 going under to the well why could i not tie in to the well feed line and not
have to dig a trench across the drive? well feed is substantial wire

As long as your sleeve under the road is big enough to pull wire through, and has ample space , it shouldn't be a problem

 

[doublewide]

what would be wrong with this ? I want to run a 240 volt under ground feed under my driveway to approx. a 140' beyond. since i already have 240 going under to the well why could i not tie in to the well feed line and not have to dig a trench across the drive? well feed is substantial wire

What is the gauge of the existing well pump conductors?
Is there 2 hots, one neutral and one ground?
What new appliance do you want to feed?
Will it be running at the same time as the well pump?

 

[Willie B]

Willie B, that's gonna take me a while to digest...

Thanks for the input!

We bond Neutral (I wish it was called center tap) to Equipment ground & in turn earth for a couple reasons.
A It creates an equipotential plane. Can't get a shock if everything you touch is electrically bonded to everything else.
B It provides a fault current path completing the circuit to transformer. Typically, a fault current path with low impedance will flow sufficient amperage to trip a circuit breaker.

Equipment grounding paths should not carry everyday current. We want all current to flow over intentional paths. If you bond at more than service disconnect some portion of that center tap current will flow over equipment ground paths. Current flowing over equipment grounding paths is dangerous. Connections in equipment ground paths are numerous, they are prone to inadequate connections. I've seen several places where conduit enters a box. They are burned away from current over a high resistance connection.

Electrical inspector tells the cautionary tale of an appliance delivery "installer" putting a three wire cord on a range. This one is real common. He discarded the jumper strap required in the exceptions allowing three conductor circuit cable. Since the strain relief supplied with these cords never fit, he discarded it too. He then shoved the range against the wall pinching the cord against a sharp sheet metal edge. I'm not shure where the sheet metal cut into the cord insulation, but it did.
For a year Mrs. Jones used the range with the frame energized by a "hot" conductor of the cord. With no ground path jumper, no circuit was completed, breaker didn't trip.
After a year, the plumber was there addressing a problem, happened to touch sink & range. He was killed.

Bond neutral to equipment ground only in service disconnect.
Rules are circumstance specific, usually, do not bond in outbuildings. Outbuildings in new installations require both neutral & grounding conductors & driven ground rods, concrete ground or substitute.

 

[Willie B]

what would be wrong with this ? I want to run a 240 volt under ground feed under my driveway to approx. a 140' beyond. since i already have 240 going under to the well why could i not tie in to the well feed line and not have to dig a trench across the drive? well feed is substantial wire

The well only gets power when the pump needs to run. Despite the safety reasons not to do it, it wouldn't work.

 

[Delmer]

Depends on where the pressure switch is, whether the well has power all the time or only with the pump running. Everything else in post #49 is reason to be careful.

The well only gets power when the pump needs to run. Despite the safety reasons not to do it, it wouldn't work.

 

[doublewide]

....After a year, the plumber was there addressing a problem, happened to touch sink & range. He was killed.....

 

[doublewide]

Depends on where the pressure switch is......

"Yup, got my new compressor hooked up in the shed, gotta flush the toilet to turn it on!"

 

[Willie B]

View attachment 240614

But if the jumper required in this installation had been in place, it'd trip the breaker.

 

[skyking1]

Great thread. We are on a 5 acre split up into 1.25 acre lots with a group B well. The original fellow who put it all together < facepalm yourself to unconsiousness at this point to keep up > had moved on, and left me with the pieces.
One day well quit working. I get out my meter and find ~70 volts on one leg. The other 50 are leaking away somewhere LOL.
Nothing to do but dig in a new service to the wellhouse, and along the way figure out the problem. He had direct buried the wire to the wellhouse in the giant potato rocks we have, no bedding, then brought his log truck home every night across it. Needless to say it went back in conduit and hand bedded.
IF that post above is wire out to the well house, you could use the run as long as you turned off or otherwise disconnected the pump load when you wanted to use it. That would be the only way I could see that would be safe, as your loads and breakers need to be sized correctly to protect you and your equipment.
If you want simultaneous operations, then you'll need to pull separate wire all the way to a panel, or put in a sub panel at the well house and wire accordingly. My wellhouse has a 100 amp panel and enough wire to do the 100 easy, far in excess of the loads.
A neat trick I used was a 4 wire 50 amp twist lock connector on both the well pump and the pressure pump, and outlets on the wall.
I have enough 240 volt generator to run one or the other, and a 500 gallon storage tank.
In an extended power outage I can make sure the storage tank is full and then run the pressure pump by plugging it into the generator. No transfer switch needed.
After about a day of that I plug in the well pump and fill the tank. It has happened only once since I set it up but still worth the trouble for 4 families to get to flush the turlet etc.

 

[petepilot]

nuff said to make me scratch that idea

 

[doublewide]

Here's one. Last weekend I was installing a new window at my house. In order to accomplish this I had to remove 2 receptacles on two different circuits.

The first receptacle had been for a wall AC unit, only appliance on that circuit. I tested for voltage, identified the breaker, shut it off and to be on the safe side I tested for voltage again, with my meter set to AC voltage, between the hot wire and the neutral and then again between the hot and the ground. WTF!!! I still had 1.4 volts! This lead me to consider that I may have stray current on my grounding system;

 

[doublewide]

So then, just for shats and gurggles, I decided to shut off the surge suppressor that I have for my home theater. Voltage reduced to 0.85 volts. So I turned the surge suppressor back on. Still 0.85 volts. Hmmm... Now I'm still thinking stray current.

Time for the next receptacle. Different circuit with multiple receptacles. Same test. Meter set to AC volts. Shut off the breaker. Probe the hot wire and the neutral. 0 volts. Probe the hot wire and the ground. 0 volts.

Whatcha all think?

 

[Delmer]

Cables run close to each other will induce voltage in the one that's not connected from the one that's live. That's what I assume when an UNHOOKED wire has voltage. Your ground and neutral should still be connected at the box. If they're not, you got bigger problems.

 

[doublewide]

Induced voltage? I was thinking bad breaker...

...Your ground and neutral should still be connected at the box.....

In the main panel (or sub panel if that's where it came from). Yes.

 

[skyking1]

easy enough for you to loosen and pull the wire out of the breaker and go re-test.