1. Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!

Electrician HELP..

Discussion in 'Shop Talk' started by thepumpguysc, Feb 12, 2020 at 4:28 PM.

  1. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    6,622
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Hermann, Missouri
    Got my numbers reversed 4/0 4/0 2/0 Triplex feeder. NEC only required Quadruplex for Commercial Three Phase last I knew.
     
    Tinkerer and Ronsii like this.
  2. Tinkerer

    Tinkerer Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    4,259
    Location:
    On A Riverbank in IL. USA
    I also ran 4/0 4/0 2/0 Triplex in conduit. But I laid the ground in it too. A 465 foot run to a 100 amp sub-panel.
    For the same reasons you did D Miller.

    That is why I am hoping that the pumpguysc does the same thing. He would never be short on power in his shop.
     
    DMiller likes this.
  3. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,223
    Occupation:
    Electrician
    Location:
    Mount Tabor VT
    Your service conductors are three conductors the three points of the secondary winding in the utility transformer.
    The service disconnect(s) are downstream of the meter. The grounding system joins. It consists of driven ground rods, rebar in your concrete footings, metal underground water line, and other connections to earth. The center tap conductor from utility is connected to earth ground in this enclosure.

    EVERYTHING downstream from the service disconnect is isolated. Ground does not again touch "Grounded"!!! All sub panels get four c
    That law changed 199? Now four conductors. Drive ground rods, connect to concrete rebar, ETC. at the outbuilding.
     
    DMiller, Delmer and Tinkerer like this.
  4. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    5,759
    Location:
    WI
    We're long past what the code says. I agree with Willie without proving it, the only grounding connection is the service entrance, so any downstream panels have to have the neutral isolated from ground (just remove the screw for the neutral bus and add a ground bus) with four wire feed, UNLESS it's a 240 load without a neutral, only ground (like TPG's pump house probably was before his guy cobbled into it).

    It would work just fine though, it has for years and probably killed no one from just a shared neutral and ground. You'd have to be get several things wrong at the same time to get killed. Is your stove and dryer hooked up with a three wire plug? same thing. If I was looking at the wiring in question, I bet it could work just fine for everything he wants out of it, a new feed isn't needed, but I bet that's what he'll get from an electrician. (just like he probably wouldn't take a pump apart and do half a rebuild on it).
     
    DMiller and Ronsii like this.
  5. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,223
    Occupation:
    Electrician
    Location:
    Mount Tabor VT
    No, in most cases code is not retroactive. What was legal when it was installed is legal now. I believe I see a piece of UF 2 wire plus ground from the tandem breaker. That was never kosher. He has several other issues; broken conduit ETC.
     
    DMiller and Delmer like this.
  6. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    5,759
    Location:
    WI
    What I meant is we all know these additions aren't to code.

    2 wire with ground is fine for a 240V only load with no neutral, like his pump probably was.
     
    Tinkerer and DMiller like this.
  7. Ronsii

    Ronsii Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,705
    Occupation:
    s/e Heavy equipment operator
    Location:
    Western Washington
    I've seen quite a few pump houses wired this way, some of them you could tell the PH started life with just a 120v 12/10 gauge feeding it... then somewhere down the road they put in a bigger 240v pump and had to move a wire in the main panel and change wires in the PH for the lights to not blow! and now they have the 120v lights returning to ground :rolleyes:
     
    DMiller and Delmer like this.
  8. Tyler d4c

    Tyler d4c Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    Salix Pa
    120 220 240 208 277 480 595 115 to name a few I've seen here in the usa. It's more interesting this way
     
    DMiller likes this.
  9. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    13,132
    Location:
    G..G..G..Granville...........!!
    I've run out of popcorn. Send more supplies please .......... :rolleyes:
     
    Delmer, DMiller and mg2361 like this.
  10. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    6,622
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Hermann, Missouri
    Working in the power station was unique
    Everything was bonded to ground
    Every conduit rerod tip anything metal in the plant cross connected with a bolted 4ga copper conductor and all interconnected to grid ground lattice across the yards.
    NEC is well beyond safety function where even the REA here accepts triplex feeders to common rural structures.
    Three conductors at pole mounted service supply with ground connected to the Neutral with a 8ga copper conductor to a copper plate at the buried pole butt around 6 1/2 feet in the soil. No separate ground to connect that fourth wire to where they accept a 8’ ground rod (Single) at structure edge. Do not exactly follow NEC specs out here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020 at 12:44 PM
    Delmer likes this.
  11. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,223
    Occupation:
    Electrician
    Location:
    Mount Tabor VT
    If I'm not mistaken there are both insulated conductors of a 2 wire + ground cable connected to the same hot leg. If this functions it is supplying 30 + 30 = 60 amps to the bare ground conductor serving as a neutral.
     
    DMiller likes this.
  12. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,223
    Occupation:
    Electrician
    Location:
    Mount Tabor VT
    You do not use four conductors for single phase until you reach the service disconnect. This is the service. Downstream of the service disconnect, there is a ground system. From there on we separate ground from neutral. In this case I believe his service disconnect is on a post outside his home. From this post it branches three ways, home, shop, and pump house.

    An earlier code allowed three wire 240/120 to outbuildings with electrode at each outbuilding. More recent code does not. No rule I know of saying you need to upgrade to current code if it was compliant when it was installed. I do not believe this installation was ever code compliant.
     
    DMiller, Tinkerer and Delmer like this.
  13. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    5,759
    Location:
    WI
    I'm absolutely sure I might have no idea what's going on. You have a picture at least, I have a description from somebody who's real good at injection pumps:D
     
    DMiller, hosspuller and Ronsii like this.
  14. TVA

    TVA Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,720
    Location:
    USA
    Sorry if I repeat something was said before, I didn’t read the whole thread.

    Question about neutral wire or no neutral wire to compressor is depending on your control circuit and motor starter ( if you use one), most of starters can be wired in to 220V, you don’t need neutral for that. If yours 115V only - you gonna have to bring neutral to it.

    Now about “ground”! Ground is incorrect term, the correct term is “bonding”! It means you have to connect all the conductive surfaces, housings, equipment frames, metal inclosures and conductor raceways to that green wire, and bring it back to main service panel so in case any “hot” wire could have touched the bonded surface it will trip the breaker!!! There’s nothing more to it.

    The real grounding is done ONLY out main service disconnect and got to do with EMF current dissipating in to the soil! It’s almost have nothing to do with actual electrical network!
     
    DMiller likes this.
  15. TVA

    TVA Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,720
    Location:
    USA
    This is just general information to everyone reading this thread.

    While I’m at it and in light what happened just recently at the place where I was working on equipment:
    When you wiring in the transformer ( let’s say 440V to 240V), all the neutrals and bonding conductors must be brought to that transformers center tap!!! And not to main disconnect neutral bus bypassing the transformers center tap!!!
    Because 400amp fuse or breaker at main disconnect will not trip trying to protect 30amp circuit on the other side of the transformer - there’s no hard connection there!
    It will burn the wires and set the shop on fire!
     
    DMiller likes this.
  16. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,223
    Occupation:
    Electrician
    Location:
    Mount Tabor VT
    Bonding is done between GROUNDED & GROUNDING busses in the service disconnect. It is also done all over the place with hot tubs, pools, and cow barns. Connecting the boxes & frames of electrical equipment is grounding. One of the insulated conductors usually white being connected to earth at the service disconnect is called GROUNDED.

    We've gone off track TPG has a breaker supplying hois shop giving him 2 30 amp circuits to his shop at 120 volts. This all seems to be done with a 2 conductor cable. He ain't gonna get 240 without some changes.

    Some manufacturers offer tandem 240 volt breakers. As he still wants to service 120 volt loads, he ought to have at least three insulated conductors. I would want ground also in this cable.
     
    DMiller and Tinkerer like this.
  17. TVA

    TVA Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,720
    Location:
    USA
    Not an electrician, but I think NEC resolved this grounding-bonding confusion in 2014 edition, because there was people who was led astray by term “grounding” and thought that if they can pound some rods in to the ground and connect green wire to them - they were protecting the circuit!!!

    Bonding jumper has its name because that’s what it is - you can’t trip the breaker without shorting phase conductor to transformers center tap. The reason why it’s done only at main disconnect because it is closest place to transformer and if you connect bonding to neutral anywhere else you creating parallel circuit and people get zapped just by touching fixtures and appliances bodies of which bonded.

    And I agree - to have a 240v and sleep good at night run four wires!
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020 at 3:11 PM
    DMiller and Tinkerer like this.
  18. Tinkerer

    Tinkerer Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    4,259
    Location:
    On A Riverbank in IL. USA
    Amen to that !
    Sums up the pumpguy's situation perfectly. IMHO.
     
    DMiller likes this.
  19. thepumpguysc

    thepumpguysc Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
    Messages:
    5,150
    Occupation:
    Master Inj.Pump rebuilder
    Location:
    Sunny South Carolina
    I just remembered, I had an electrical contractor from the power company out here a year ago to give me a quote on getting POWER TO the new shop.. he looked at the box & said, no way.. we gotta run a new wire from the transformer to a meter at the shop.. & cut ALL these trees{face them} ...price was 3 Grand..
    & now I remember that's why I went w/ this "jack-leg".. who tied into the existing wire from the old shop that caught fire.. He did some digging in the yard & found it.. so instead of running all new wire from the box at the house 50-75 yards, he only had to run about 25ft..
    BUT it didn't matter how much wire he hadta use.. there wasn't 240 on it anyway.!!!
    That 3 grand is lookin better & better..
    I'll just wait to see what this other electrician says..
     
    DMiller likes this.
  20. TVA

    TVA Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,720
    Location:
    USA
    I have overhead service to my house with the pole in most uncomfortable location!
    If you have machinery or can ask someone who does and it is not gonna cost you a lot, talk to contractor so he will lay the trench markings for you, dig the trench and lay the conduit and all the contractor will have to do is install the wiring. At least it will be more comfortable for you and less risk of wires getting ripped by falling trees and branches when storm will blow through.
     
    DMiller likes this.