Deutz dumper..... diesel in the engine

[Peter Webster]

I must admit I am confused now. There seems to be 2 types of rotation possible for the pin .
As shown in the first video below.
The pin rotates a little stiffly to start, and then it suddenly rotates much more freely
Then it can be rotated with the spring quite freely- 2nd video.
Finally it rotates quite stiffly, if i hold the pin and rotate the bottom of the spring- 3rd video.
The 4 pumps are identical
video 1

video 2

video 3

 

[Peter Webster]

The pumps have all been taken out and are all Bosch .
Number 1 and 3 pumps install ok
2 and 4 seem blocked out;
I tried both 2 and 4 pumps in the 1 and 3 ports, and they both go in no problem- so all 4 pumps will install into ports 1 and 3
None of the 4 pumps will install into ports 2 or 4 .
So it looks like there is a difference between the 1 + 3 and 2 + 4 ports. Manual inspection and I cant see any difference.

Next is to investigate a path of insertion issue. he replaced the mounting bolts with much longer ones. Going to take out the bolts for 2+4 to see if they insert .

 

[funwithfuel]

Roll the crank 1 revolution and retry.
The cam lobes are probably high

 

[thepumpguysc]

EXACTLY RIGHT FWF..

 

[Peter Webster]

yes thankyou both . i actually figured this out myself. I feel a bit stupid- should have realised earlier.
So all 4 pumps are back in, and I checked for free movement of the rack after each pump was installed and all was good, the last one in was number 3, which initially was binding, but I easily freed it. It seemed like just a little bit of friction rather than an actual locked bar.
I have left it for now and will try to restart in the morning.
Having a mini celebration with one of my favorite beers

 

[Peter Webster]

Now that all 4 pumps have been installed, one at a time and with confirmation that the rack moves freely, I have bled the fuel through and unfortunately the number 4 inj pump refuses to pump.
it gave an initial spurt then nothing.
These were all sent off for checking last week, and came back all ok.

 

[funwithfuel]

Remove that pump , place something you can observe on top of the cam follower. Make sure you have a lobe to push that plunger up and down. If the cam is good, then someone didn't properly check the pump. In my opinion based on everything you've posted.

 

[Peter Webster]

Remove that pump , place something you can observe on top of the cam follower. Make sure you have a lobe to push that plunger up and down. If the cam is good, then someone didn't properly check the pump. In my opinion based on everything you've posted.

By the cam follower, I am guessing that you mean this?

 

[funwithfuel]

Yes

 

[thepumpguysc]

Why not re-bleed it.?? MAKE SURE its getting fuel instead of air..

 

[Peter Webster]

Why not re-bleed it.?? MAKE SURE its getting fuel instead of air..

.I had assumed that if the other 3 pumps were squirting fuel that they would be all ,not so? I will try rebleeding # 4 tomorrow

 

[Peter Webster]

Yes

so i should put something like a piece of poly pipe on top and watch to see if it moves up and down?

 

[funwithfuel]

That would work, try pumpguys advice first.

 

[Peter Webster]

OK tried PG's advise and re-bled- no problems with fuel.

So I took the #4 pump out and turned the crankshaft- the cam follower is moving

So it looks like pump #4 is probably the culprit right? This would explain the no start? Or just not running smoothly with only 3 injectors getting fuel?
I know that the engine will start when the pumps are installed with the pins in position B (that was when we had the runaway problem)
So is pump 4 significant enough on its own to prevent a start? Obviously the pump has to be fixed, but I am still wondering if there is a setting or something on the pumps that is preventing a start.

 

[thepumpguysc]

That engine IS NOT TURNING fast enough to start, PERIOD.!!
U should leave # 4 pump alone for the time being & focus on the cranking problem..!!
Don’t those pumps have an eccentric mounting flange hole??
Meaning u can turn them slightly left or right.??
How about shiming.?? Did they have shims under the pumps when u took them out.??

 

[Peter Webster]

That engine IS NOT TURNING fast enough to start, PERIOD.!!
U should leave # 4 pump alone for the time being & focus on the cranking problem..!!
Don’t those pumps have an eccentric mounting flange hole??
Meaning u can turn them slightly left or right.??
How about shiming.?? Did they have shims under the pumps when u took them out.??

Haha yes the battery needs help. Its been cranking a lot. I have a booster that helps.
Yes they have eccentric holes and the shims are still in place.

Qu why is it important to keep the pumps in their original hole? Is there a setting that has been calibrated for each pump? Is that what the shims do? At the moment they all have 1 shim that appears to be identical under each pump.

qu why not swap out one of the other pumps and put it in # 4 hole and see if it pumps. This would diagnose the pump as the problem? or have I got this wrong

 

[funwithfuel]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! First thing first. Remove the injectors and see if you have compression. That runaway with improperly shimmed pumps may have hurt your pistons. The shims establish your injection timing. If you were advanced too much, the piston crown may have been hurt. Maybe.
There is a procedure for measuring plunger depth and subtracting the desired height stamped on the pump body. It really depends on which generation and applications.

 

[Peter Webster]

qu why would the pumps be incorrectly shimed? They were taken out , marked 1,2,3,4 and the shims were kept in place. The runaway happened when he re-installed the pumps (in correct original sequence) with the pin in position B. If he replaced the pumps in the original holes, with the original shims, then everything should be ok shouldnt it? He hasnt changed the height of the pump relative to the cam follower.
Having said that , I remember he pulled # 4 pump out after the runaway and it had to be reassembled- something had come loose. Coincidence?
Also, If he had installed the pins in position B, it could be that the fuel rack was PINCHING the fuel rail ? (see pic below) I assume that this could lead to the fuel being constantly supplied rather than pulsing . I dont think he tightened the pins down ON TOP of the fuel rail as has been suggested ., and this would be supported by the fact that the fuel rail seems to move quite freely;
Sorry about the number of questions, but I am struggling to understand this engine, and dont really want to let him loose on the engine again if he has done damage.

 

[thepumpguysc]

The oblong holes allow for changes in fuel delivery to that cylinder..
U should be able to find a slash mark on the pump and block..
Yes u can swap the pumps around to determine if it’s a bad pump..
At this point it doesn’t matter.. you’ve already sent them out without marking them or tieing the shim to each one..

 

[Peter Webster]

Re the pumps- no they were sent out marked. He was very careful about that, the shims stayed on the block. So neither the pumps nor their shims were mixed up

Re the oblong holes (B). I thought the pin on the pump was meant to go into A not B. When would B be used? Sorry I am having a mental block here