Deutz Ditch witch trencher/hoe fuel issue

[gatorsby7]

the button I'm referring to is on the injection pump housing. My Case 360 Operators Manual refers to it as the fuel primer button. it is on the housing just above where you said the solenoid valve would be. it is #2 in the this picture:

 

[gatorsby7]

it is also referred to as "starting fuel allowance button" in the Deutz Operation manual

 

[thepumpguysc]

Have u taken the 2 lines off the pump to SEE what the he!!'s going on.??
It wont hurt a thing, just hold the holders w/ a wrench while loosening up the lines..{double wrench method}
Then, move the throttle to HI & crank'r over & WATCH the squirts..
THEN move that lever/button & watch the squirts..
Have u gotten a pail or bucket & actually checked the FLOW from the tank.. let it run into a bucket to SEE if theres any obstruction. Let it run for SEVERAL MINUTES..??
BTW> never in my life, have I ran into a lever or button on or by the inj. pump that needed pressing.

 

[gatorsby7]

I'll remove the injector lines and see what happens. In the meantime, here is a better picture of that button. It is not a normal part of the start process or they would have it on the dash. You have to remove the side panel to access it.

 

[Delmer]

BTW> never in my life, have I ran into a lever or button on or by the inj. pump that needed pressing.

What??? Simms/Minimec pumps have a cold start button like that. It's INSIDE the pivot of the shut off lever, so easy to overlook. Does that button stick in a lower position the first time you start it after it's run? and pop back out when the engine starts?

Some of the early Bosch rotary pumps (DBA?) had some funny cold start position like pull the shut off back all the way to start, I haven't figured that one out, just read something crazy like that.

That button makes perfect sense as a cold start device (fuel allowance...). It shouldn't be needed in ordinary starting. And I have no idea how it could be connected to your engine dying, aside from the obvious, more fuel better.

 

[gatorsby7]

yes Delmer, you push it in and somehow adds fuel. when engine starts it pops back out. I don't think it is connected to why the engine is dying, but it is connected to why it runs for a few seconds. the pump is a Bosch PFR. here's the plate:

 

[thepumpguysc]

I would love to pull that pump, just to see what the he!! It operates.!!??
I’ve never ever have seen that type of gizmo..lol

 

[thepumpguysc]

U might end up pulling it anyway..
Just to see if the control rack is free, back & forth..
I’d remove the lines from the pump first.. just to see if the pump is actually pumping without pushing down the button..

 

[gatorsby7]

I feel like I 'm on an episode of the Mystery of Oak Island. The more I learn the more questions I have.
I took an injector line off and cranked it. Only a few low pressure drops of fuel came out.

I've never worked on a diesel before other than changing fuel filters so I've been trying to educate myself. My understanding is that the governor controls the fuel supply and that on these engines the governor is the speed control system and it can be either constant speed or have a torque sensing mechanism. From operating it, I'm thinking constant speed, but not positive of that. Also, it would seem like the fuel allowance button is probably tied into the governor.

I haven't taken the pump out yet and checked the control rack. At this point it, it seems to me that I could have a problem with the Injection Pump, the governor, the control rack or something else. Does anyone have more thoughts or guidance on this?

 

[Delmer]

There's no such thing as a torque sensing mechanism in this context, that would be a governor style that is more like a throttle on a gas engine, less governoring action, more speeding up with less load and slowing down with more load. You have a traditional diesel governor, so forget about that stuff.

The only speed control is the amount of fuel, so that button adds more fuel (possibly adjusts timing for better starting, but doesn't sound like it in this case). Yes, it will be tied into the governor linkage somehow, because that is the only output of the gov, more fuel or less fuel. Possibly no timing advance on this, ignore that I ever mentioned that.

So starting with the basics,
1) there is NO electric control of this injection pump? does it turn off with a key? or with a cable that you pull? or the throttle pushed to a certain position? And there are NO electric wires connected to the injection pump or anything connected to it?

2) fuel supply to this pump, put a tee into that supply line and a pressure/vacuum gauge where you can see it. Use the primer pump to see what pressure you can obtain. Then try to start it and see what the pressure does when it cranks, starts, and dies. The pressure should bleed down after it's died, but not at the same time it's dying.

3) take both injector lines off at the pump, and see if they are both moving an equal amount of fuel.

It would be unusual for many of these things to fail on a running engine without badly contaminated fuel, eliminate as much as possible before taking it apart. It looks like that governor housing is part of the front cover of the engine? I wouldn't want to take that off just to get a look. The injector pump elements that come off the top don't seem likely to show you much the way it sounds.

The info is out there if you want to look deeper at taking this apart, or see what's in there without taking this apart. There's a deutz german forum that google will translate for you, and many of the members would read english well enough to answer your questions if you can't find the answer.

 

[gatorsby7]

going back to the basics is good advice. I'll work on #2 and #3 without disassembling the high pressure fuel system and get back to you. I wasn't aware of the forum you referenced...I'll try to find it.
to answer you question on #1, I'm confident I've ruled out no electronic control. I think I went down a rabbit hole with that when I googled diesel starts and dies and got lots of electronic solenoid results. I should have known better. This thing does not shut down with the key. You push or turn in the throttle control all the way to shut it off.

 

[thepumpguysc]

I think your over thing this whole thing..
U took the lines off the inj. pump & found its not pumping..
U took the inlet line off & spun the engine to find u had good fuel pumping out of the inlet line going TO the inj. pump..
Henceforth, the fuel isnt going THRU the inj. pump..ie: stuck rack..
Pull the inj. pump out of the hole & check the control rack for movement.
It'll take u 10 minutes.
OR take that PLUG out where an electric sol. would go & that will give u access to the pumps control rack..

 

[Delmer]

I get it now. I was thinking some piece of the over complicated german linkage was stuck, and you'd need to take the whole housing off.

You're thinking the rack is stuck at a low idle, or lower, and the extra fuel button allows it to start. That makes sense, and easy enough. I don't understand it, but that never stopped me yet.

 

[gatorsby7]

Just wanted to say I appreciate everyone's help and patience.

i was going to test the fuel pressure like Delmer suggested, but couldn't find the right tees in my shop to make it work. anyway, while starting to do that, i pulled the line off the injection pump. quite a bit of fuel squirted out under pressure. I do not believe I have a problem with the fuel supply to the injection pump and that agrees with what thepumpguysc is saying. Looks like I'm going to pull the pump or plug and check the rack. I'm not sure about procedure to put pump back in if I do that. I'll have to look it up and learn more about the rack.

 

[gatorsby7]

I removed the injection pump. Yes, removing it was very easy. When I looked in the case I was expecting to see something that was obviously the control rack. Hopefully my pics are good enough. I included one at angle to get a better look at what that primer/starting fuel allowance button connects to. where is the rack and how do i move it to determine if it is frozen?

 

[Delmer]

how about a pic of the bottom of the injection pump? there has to be some linkage on both pump "barrels" that ties them together.

Those two tabs must control the fuel. Looks like your start button rotates that arm out of the way letting those tabs move a little further. Those tabs are controlled by the governor, and should be free to move, and move when you move the governor. Do they?

You might find something obviously broken, stuck, or unhooked by looking around the bottom of the injection pump, or the inside of that part of the engine, paying attention to what moves when the governor "throttle" moves.

Remember, static pressure is not the same as pressure with flow while running.

 

[gatorsby7]

here's the pic. i tried moving the part in the case that the rod on the pump goes to. it did not move. i also tried moving the throttle control to see if it moved. it did not.

 

[gatorsby7]

let me modify the above statement. the "fork" that the rod from pump rides in does move. i can move it towards the outer case about 1/2 inch. it can also be move that same direction when i turn the throttle all the way in/off. when i move the throttle back out, the fork moves that 1/2 inch and stops or hits the stop, but i would say it hits that stop approx 1/3 throttle. when i keep moving the throttle the fork does not keep moving.

 

[Delmer]

Does the round knob on the pump in that pic in post #37 move back and forth? That is the rack that moves the pump piston scrolls to control the fuel amount. And if you push those cam followers up, they both spring back with the same force?

The case sounds about right, it won't move directly with the throttle lever, as long as it's free and moves somewhat, that's as good as I can tell from here.

 

[thepumpguysc]

The slider on the pump should move left to right, freely..
U see the stamp & arrow on it, STOP.??
That means the other way is RUN.
The rack on the pump doesn’t move much.. about an inch or maybe 2..
If the control rack on the pump doesn’t move.. u found the problem..
See if u can compress the rollers on the bottom.. there shouldn’t have any play.. they should be under spring force all the time..
If there’s slip, that means either the spring is broken or the pumping plunger is stuck in the collapsed position..
I don’t suggest opening it up.!!
U don’t have the proper gaskets & seals to put it back together..
Feel free to send me a prat msg..