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DEF Delight or not??

BigWrench55

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Is the rise in efficiency the reason some OEM's are doing away with egr

I took a class at Cummins for teir4 final engines. By the time I got into class I had most of teir4 figured out, but I still learned something. One thing I learned is that Cummins is the first to come up with a teir4 emissions engine that would work. The other thing I learned is that most everyone has a licensed version of their system. And Bosch makes almost everyone's def components. The other thing that I learned was that. Once the def system was added and how it works, the need for egr wasn't necessary. I did raise the question as to why egr was still being used, but couldn't get a answer. It appears that since then the engineering gods have agreed. And now the next generation of emissions doesn't have it.
Also anything 50 horsepower and above has to have the latest emissions standards. the smaller engines will regen passively and not need def. The larger engines will regen passively and run def. Since the emissions game is expensive you will notice manufacturers for small platform equipment have a 49.5 horsepower engines.
 

Midnightmoon

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78hp no def in fpt engines. They us a pm cat and egr. Its passive cleaning only.
I think the pm cat is a doc and scr?
 

John C.

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You don't get the choice of one or the other. You have to meet both specs. It is easier to do with a small engine. Small engines don't burn as much fuel per revolution so it is easier to get it under a specification.

Here is a link to the current state of the emission laws and about halfway down on those pages there is a table that shows the limits for the various pollutants. It is showing an alternate cap and I don't right now understand what that means but do note that there is no spec for NOX on engines under 56KW of power. 56 KW is about 76 horsepower.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2014-02-06/pdf/2014-02612.pdf

Things are changing, I don't know what Svl is but Case has for the most part been running licensed Cummins engines under the Case name. Is that still the true?
 

Midnightmoon

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Case is fpt which is owned by fpt now and isuzu engines
Tou can make a engine meet either pm or nox without aftertreatment but not both. No nox for below 74? Interesting
 

Birken Vogt

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FPT stands for Fiat Powertrain. I don't have any personal experience but they are weaseling their way into all sorts of equipment these days and have for some time.

Recall in another thread I recently learned that JCB has engines under 74 HP with zero aftertreatment. So it can be done. But probably just barely. I am pretty sure they use EGR on those models but no filter or even catalyst in the exhaust system. Choose your poison.
 

Midnightmoon

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Under 75hp no nox spec I wonder how much nox they are putting out

Fpt is doing something right. You used to see cummins in everything now I dont see them as much. Mainly jlg is all I've seen them in as far as new stuff and those had some issues brand new blowing oil everywhere. Made in China right? 4cylinder....cant remember the model on those. They ran great once the main seals were replaced
Under that hp no nox spec I wonder how much nox they are putting out.
 

Birken Vogt

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That federal register page does not seem to show the whole story.

Under 75 HP the standard is for HC + NOx. Above 75 HP each one gets its own standard. The above 75 HP standard if you add them both together is still a lot lower than the combined HC + NOx standard below 75 HP.

The JCB engine below 75 HP has no aftertreatment. Above that I believe it has SCR.
 

terex herder

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A diesel by definition is a lean burn engine at anything less than full fuel. NOx is produced by the high combustion temperatures that can be a result of lean burn. EGR is an attempt to reduce the amount of excess oxygen in the combustion chamber to reduce the amount of NOx produced.
 

John C.

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That federal register page does not seem to show the whole story.

Under 75 HP the standard is for HC + NOx. Above 75 HP each one gets its own standard. The above 75 HP standard if you add them both together is still a lot lower than the combined HC + NOx standard below 75 HP.

The JCB engine below 75 HP has no aftertreatment. Above that I believe it has SCR.

The only way I can figure this is that the amount of fuel these engines burn per shift would still produce less emissions that the larger engines. I remember one of the stories on Myth Busters that tried to prove a modern motorcycle could not be used to claim someone was being green by using it instead of a car. They used exhaust testing to show the motor cycle engine produced more pollutant per gallon of gas than the car. What they got called on was that during the test, the motor cycle used less than half the amount of gas than the car used.
 

Birken Vogt

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The only way I can figure this is that the amount of fuel these engines burn per shift would still produce less emissions that the larger engines.

Don't try to make sense of it, it does not make sense no matter how hard you try. Big engines have much different standards yet. It's all nonsense, just roll with it. Engines under 25 HP, typically 1.5 liters and below, are considered Tier 4 but basically the same as T3. Just don't give them any more ideas, the air is clean enough, let's just live with what we've got, the bureaucrats have saved everybody, now just give them their pensions and they can leave us alone.
 

KSSS

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Don't try to make sense of it, it does not make sense no matter how hard you try. Big engines have much different standards yet. It's all nonsense, just roll with it. Engines under 25 HP, typically 1.5 liters and below, are considered Tier 4 but basically the same as T3. Just don't give them any more ideas, the air is clean enough, let's just live with what we've got, the bureaucrats have saved everybody, now just give them their pensions and they can leave us alone.

Wouldn't it be nice if they would just "leave us alone" . It's never gonna be clean enough and there are always bureaucratic pensions to build.
 

crane operator

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Why do they spend all this time on 80hp motors, and not do a thing to the jets they fly coast to coast in? As I understand it, the jets are way worse than anything on the ground. The figures I've seen for co2 on the planes per distance traveled are atrocious. But I don't see any regs from the epa on those guys.
 

John C.

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Because the airline industry has more money and lobbyists. The will get there though. It is only a matter of time.
 

Welder Dave

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If they made DEF mandatory on jets the 737 Max problems would seem minor in comparison. Jets have got a lot more efficient and cleaner burning over the years but having an engine quit in the air because of DEF issues is a lot different than having an engine quit on the ground. A single engine on a Boeing 777 has over 110,000 HP and it has 2 engines. What would the emissions be from 220,000 HP worth of diesel engines in comparison? It would take 440 500 HP (diesel) engines to make 220,000 HP.
 

Welder Dave

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Cruising speed of a 777 is 560 MPH. Using a round figure of 100,000lbs. thrust your calculator comes out to 149,333.3333.... HP. That's just for 1 engine. The newest version of the engine set a new world record of over 134,000lbs. of thrust. They are so efficient the 4 engine 747 is being discontinued.
 

KSSS

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Muffler Bearing

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Great Thread! I just swapped a 6.7 FPT engine into a unit that failed with no oil pressure. I noticed that the DEF pump and tank heater valve were taped off and unplugged. I'm told this unit had SCR delete software in the ECM allowing it to run without codes or derate. The new engine and ECM are going to disagree with that. My boss told me it needs to leave with everything working correctly,... so I'll let you know what it takes to undelete it. The DOC, DPF and SCR are all intact. Let's see if they survived as expensive mufflers.
 
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