DEF Delight or not??

[Gene Allar]

Has anyone tried to install a DEF Delight on their equipment. I have a 2013 Case 621F Wheel Loader. Their is a DEF issue the dealer can't seem to find the fix for. Maybe it would be faster and cheaper just to git it delighted. What do you think??

 

[funwithfuel]

There are guys out there claiming to have delete kits and programs. Not a wise investment. If, IF, the EPA catches up with you, you're looking at ridiculous fines, to start. Not worth it.

 

[RZucker]

If you do a delete... make sure the entire package is covered. I know of a Cummins ISX with a DEF/ EGR delete that has burned down twice. I wont touch it and obviously Cummins will not touch it. It's a 2012 engine and the emissions controls are so messed up nobody can really figure out what is going on.

 

[willie59]

Agree with others, delete kit sounds inviting, but if you you're in a spot that you need OEM help, Cummins, Cat, Detroit, they won't touch it 'cause EPA controls them. And as was mentioned previously, the EPA fines are substantial, very substantial.

 

[StanRUS]

OEMs and certified shops cannot have 'tampered with emissions controlled vehicles or equip' on their property except to repair-back-to-certified-emissions controls.
Fines article
https://www.overdriveonline.com/eng...cement-put-the-brakes-on-illegal-engine-mods/

 

[BSAA65LB]

For an engine OEM, the fine is $33K/day/per engine for out of spec engines. So the engine guys have a little incentive to not get involved in an engine that has been altered. The fines are similar for the equipment OEM for having out of spec. engines.

Simple reality is.....equipment/trucks with emissions controlled engines are going to have a relatively short life. Once the 5 year emissions warranty expires.....the cost of keeping the engine alive is going to be more than an owner wants to bear.

 

[BigWrench55]

What is the issue with your emissions problem? Maybe I can help.

 

[Gene Allar]

What is the issue with your emissions problem? Maybe I can help.

We run the machine 9 miles to get to the location where we use it to plow snow. Before the unit gets to town the yellow light comes on warning about a DEF issue. Sometimes when you restart the unit, the light goes out and things run like normal until the next time. First time the code was 3350. Termin50 sig. Wrong operation. Next time the yellow light came on it was code 3612. Engine SCR CTRL out of limits. Our Case dealer hooked it up to the computer and thought the DEF might be bad. I drained the tank and refilled with new fluid. No change. It seems like the high RPM driving down the road might be triggering the issue, not sure. They came back a second time, hoked it up and ran it down the road. The Knock sensor was kicking out the code at high RPM so we replaced it. $700 plus now 2 service calls later, same issue. I notices a little oily film on top of the DEF fluid so I removed the cap, cleaned the cap breather and filler filter, sucked the oily substance off the top and checked the in-line and canister DEF filters even thought they were both changed when we got the machine and all looked good. Took it for a ride last night, got 9 miles out with no problem. Turned around with a big smile thinking maybe just maybe when the yellow and Red light came on shutting me down to 900 RPM. Tried restarting the machine several times to see if something would reset but nothing. Limped it home and put it back in the shop. Same issue this morning. I am not looking to avoid any government regulations but the $75,000 paper weight isn't what I was looking to buy.

 

[td25c]

Simple reality is.....equipment/trucks with emissions controlled engines are going to have a relatively short life. Once the 5 year emissions warranty expires.....the cost of keeping the engine alive is going to be more than an owner wants to bear.

That's my take on it as well . Wont matter if your a small operator with one piece of equipment causing trouble or a big fleet owner with 100 of them .

The trouble will have the same effect on both .

When it comes down to spending $ money to make it blow smoke again & produce …… They will take the path of least resistance to put it back in action . Whatever that path may be ?

 

[RZucker]

That's my take on it as well . Wont matter if your a small operator with one piece of equipment causing trouble or a big fleet owner with 100 of them .

The trouble will have the same effect on both .

When it comes down to spending $ money to make it blow smoke again & produce …… They will take the path of least resistance to put it back in action . Whatever that path may be ?

Don't say "blow smoke" that'll get you in trouble right there.

 

[td25c]

Don't say "blow smoke" that'll get you in trouble right there.

You are correct RZ !

How about " Great Again " .

 

[BigWrench55]

First thing I want to tell you about the SCR DEF system is when you have excessive idling or running it hard will cause you to consume more DEF. The first code I’m not sure what it means. But the second code 3612 Catalyst efficiency lower than second Nox prediction threshold level. You have two nox sensors on the SCR. The first one in line is reading how much nox gases are coming out of the engine exhaust. It then passes through the SCR which basically scrubs the nox gases out of the exhaust. The DEF fluid comes into play creating a reaction to help in the removal of the nox gas. So the second sensor is predicting what it expects to see after the exhaust is passed through the SCR. And in your case it doesn’t like what it sees. You could have a bad DEF doser or your SCR is burned up. Or you could simply have a bad nox sensor. The DEF doser isn’t really bad it’s just not spraying well. It’s kind of like a fuel injector. A fix for that is to remove it and soak it in hot water. I also want to add that DEF fluid purity is critical. It will benefit you to get a tester for the DEF purity. Depending on temperature DEF degrades over time. The hotter it is the faster it degrades. Sorry for the long explanation but I like to inform while giving advice. I hope this will steer you in the right direction. It’s frustrating to see people working on this stuff and not know how to fix it at the customers expense.

 

[63 caveman]

A local Pepsi distributor has gone to a legal delight. All their medium duty trucks have been switched to gassers.

 

[John C.]

I just wonder why all this wasn't covered under warranty? When the regulations came out on cars the new controls had to have a 100,000 mile warranty by law. So now we have all this new technology on diesels and the end user gets to foot the bill for the learning curve?

 

[check]

Simple reality is.....equipment/trucks with emissions controlled engines are going to have a relatively short life. Once the 5 year emissions warranty expires.....the cost of keeping the engine alive is going to be more than an owner wants to bear.

This is wonderful for bankers! As soon as the machine is paid for, you have to get another loan and you will forever be paying interest on money they issue out of thin air.

 

[tbone1471]

We have a machine with a cat c4.4 nothing but problems. It randomly turns off and derates. But something strange has happened. It has stopped using def. Not even a gallon in the past 400 troublesome hours. It is a 2017 and the advice from the dealer we purchased it from was keep running it.... the code comes up j1939 communication error. I wonder what the epa would have to say about the dealer saying run it?

 

[ih100]

. The DEF doser isn’t really bad it’s just not spraying well. It’s kind of like a fuel injector. A fix for that is to remove it and soak it in hot water..

Just wanted to add to your excellent description, Paul, that de-mineralised water is far better than hot tap water. Drop the DEF injector into a container of de-min and it'll do the job.

 

[92U 3406]

We have a machine with a cat c4.4 nothing but problems. It randomly turns off and derates. But something strange has happened. It has stopped using def. Not even a gallon in the past 400 troublesome hours. It is a 2017 and the advice from the dealer we purchased it from was keep running it.... the code comes up j1939 communication error. I wonder what the epa would have to say about the dealer saying run it?

I've seen that on a few pieces. Dealer should be able to test the CAN communication status in ET. If nothing is communicating with the PETU you've likely got a harness issue or an issue with one of the DEF components. We've had to change a few DEF pumps on fairly new units because they've failed.

 

[245dlc]

We put some sort of bypass on our 2012 or 13 Kobelco SK210 right from the very start it had constant problems and we'd have to have the dealer come out and try to figure it out. After the warranty expired the boss phoned a guy and had this thing installed and 2 years later we still haven't put a drop of that horse **** in the tank. I'm still of the opinion that everybody that's anybody that runs diesel powered equipment needs to band together and let these 'greenies' that tier 4 or whatever you want to call it doesn't work and we're throwing our money away trying to make it work!

 

[BigWrench55]

Just wanted to add to your excellent description, Paul, that de-mineralised water is far better than hot tap water. Drop the DEF injector into a container of de-min and it'll do the job.

That’s good info. I didn’t know that. Hot water was how I was trained from cummins. Which I believe all SCR systems are modeled after.