Deere 310A Backhoe wont start

[comet424]

oh and another question you see I have the pressure gauge hooked up to the high side.. when the destroke valve is working.. and when your cranking it should stay at 0 correct? as I aborted the videos as I was curling the front bucket not the back.. but when cranking I watched the pressure rising … but I just curious if when the destroke is working if that pressure gauge reads 0 when you crank...
and thank you @Delmer and rest for the help I really appreciate this group and the help

 

[Tinkerer]

You are not wasting anyone's time Comet. We are all here to help each other. Delmer and the the rest of us will help you for as long as it takes.
Thanks for the pictures of the destroke valve. I now understand how it operates. Delmer is right, the plunger is in that shiny tube.
It doesn't look like JD sells the coil (#8) only. Just the complete valve.
https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/68895/referrer/search/pgId/2173

 

[Delmer]

Tinkerer, I think the center of the solenoid in that video is a SS tube that holds the plain steel core that operates the valve.

Comet, I was explaining how the hydraulic pump works. That's all inside the hydraulic pump, the one in the video in front of the engine. I understand how the pump works, but explaining it is tougher. Trust me, it works, if you want to know how, just ask, or get the manual, it's more clear and has pictures. Don't take it apart

The gauge won't stay at 0 even with the destroke working, it will build SOME pressure. Maybe 200PSI, maybe 800, I don't know. It won't go to 2,500 or anywhere close if the destroke is working. Since you have the machine in running shape, and a pressure gauge hooked up already, the next time you use it, at low idle put 12V to that coil, and see what the pressure drops to. Just a split second, a couple times, will show what the needle drops to. Doesn't have to be perfect, it will either stay 2,500 and not drop at all, OR it will go way down.

Comet, where is the big ball bearing that you mentioned?

Also, what is the inside diameter of that coil? the size of the round hole in the metal bracket. If you have a drill bit set, see which one fit's through there easily BY HAND only. Also, what is the height of the plastic coil, or the inside of the metal bracket that it fits in. There are plenty of coils floating around that would work, but lets see what's happening first.

 

[comet424]

ah ok.. ya I didn't wanna sound like I wasting anyones time.. as I never really repair it and I don't run it everyday... maybe a week or 2 out of a year.. as I use my tractor more on the farm then the backhoe .. use it to lift the car when I have to fix underneath lol...
ya I not planning on taking the pump apart... it works after I increased the pressure.. as I did that 6 7 yrs ago the jd mechanic said the pumps wear out and you need to increase the pressure.. I looked at getting a reman pump your prices in the usa like 700 but in Canada was 1500+ as I was looking to replace it instead.. and that coil is 500 well 490...
I can try but I tried cranking it like you mention with the coil and destroke valve outside of the pump had it sitting on the tire.. and nothing came out.. reason I was thinking from the pic I showed kinda the wire is not many strands left to the entering of the coil.. reason I was thinking like a car battery it may show 12 volts but it not longer has 1000 cranking amps but like 50 amps.. … as nothing happened nothing shot out..

the ball bearing feeling.. is I put my finger in the hole of the pump where the destroke plunger went in.. it fend round in there no sharp feeling.. as I figured maybe something broke off the plunger... and from looking at the vavle if the center rod comes out.. doesn't it mark up the ball or whatever is there that holds the oil pressure? as I look at the plunger it looks like it be like a little needle and it would make a mark inside the pump its pressing on when you turn the key.. but I feel in there was smooth.. like a ball bearing.. like a spring on the other side pressing on the ball to keep a tight seal.. that's why I was thinking maybe the plunger broke years ago..


ok ill measure that stuff tomorrow... and like the metering valve on injector pump how do we know that the plunger isn't stuck inside and wont ever come out?? but I can get you the info tomorrow im just thinking coil is cooked... but you guys the experts.. I learn as I go
thanks for the help so far I really appreciate it

 

[GregsHD]

Where are you at in this country of ours?

Are there any tractor/equipment wreckers anywhere near you? John Deere used that same destroke valve/coil on quite a few different models.

 

[comet424]

im in Canada Ontario couple hours east of Toronto..... I don't know of any tractor equipment wreckers... just john deere welll Ontrax but its been sold to Brandt now they are the john dealer and ontrax is gone

I asked brandt if they take payment plans as I cant afford 500 bucks for small item like that least not in one shot.....
and I tried googling that destroke by the number they gave me only showed on the 310a and b go figure lol

 

[GregsHD]

Well I'm in BC, so can't help you there..

Have you tried AT73624?

 

[comet424]

ya I keep finding usa parts places and a uk one.. nothing in Canada so far lol... gonna re try tomorrow I gave up I did the first 2 pages of google searchs lol

 

[Tinkerer]

I don't know if this helps you Comet. I wish the picture showed the full length of the valve. I did find out JD makes the valve but they buy the coils that operate them. This one is a John Deere and sure looks like yours. About $50.00 USD.
As you can see it is 6 volts like yours. Applying 12 volts from the starter terminal would destroy it quite quickly. I'm thinking that there is a voltage reducing resistor somewhere in the wire that this solenoid is connected to.




Here is a link to an aftermarket valve for you to look at. https://avspare.com/spare/deere/at37169/
JD used that valve on a lot of different tractors.

 

[comet424]

ah ok I did look up that code the AT37169 found its also like around 300 usd amount... I did look up 300xxxx number from the Vickers I emailed Canadian seller
https://www.radwell.ca/en-CA/Buy/EATON CORPORATION/VICKERS/300AA00246A/?redirect=true

now question I looked on the wiring there is no resistor to drop 12volts down to 6 volts.. the wire has a different plug like a blade like they changed the wiring at one point..
but on the starter I saw a 310a picture starter there is a 2nd post they ran the destroke too.. does a starter solenoid offer 12v and 6v posts?
this is the article... I thinking maybe that 6volts and the people before me with the backhoe had on wrong posts?
https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/john-deere-vintage-tractors/413345-jd-310a-destroke-valve.html

why are they 6volts yet the battery is 12...

 

[comet424]

and I just try the backhoe.... so it spins at a constant speed not fast but same pace.. if I curl the hoe bucket (pulling lever to the left) if I let go it builds up pressure and starter has issues I pull the lever and it goes back to cranking ok.
still doesn't start right away but I never been able to get it to start without a shot of starter fluid..
so ill do that in winter for now till I can get a new coil or whatever... give a shot pull lever and start

 

[Tinkerer]

I read that article and don't know if it drops the voltage there. The author of that post must be using that wire to supply his destroke coil without any problems. Or maybe he burnt it out eventually.

There is an endless amount of different resistors to reduce 12v to 6 volts. I am most familiar with the porcelain ones used to drop the voltage for ignition coils. Ford and GM used them for years. I had a 1956 Chevy many years ago and had to replace the resistor.
https://www.amazon.com/DB-Electrical-IDR6000-Converter-8NE-10306/dp/B00Q8LS1RE
Here is a newer style that does the same thing. https://www.amazon.com/VOLTAGE-DROP-dune-buggy-baja/dp/B003KKMDHA
mg2361 or Delmer may know more about using one of them on your pump. I would think that they are heavy enough electrically to be ok.

 

[Delmer]

The diagram in post #82 says "parker hanifin" under the valve, I'd bet it's an off the shelf cartridge valve also. Parker and other companies make cartridge valves, I don't think Deere or Cat makes that kind of thing. In any case, I think we can easily find a coil that will work, if you want to try that.

If you can crank it without building pressure by using the backhoe, I'd leave it for now. Fix the block heater though, so much nicer to the engine than starting fluid. How about a picture of the broken block heater you have? that should be much easier to fix than explaining how to replace broken rings.

Don't worry about how the 6V coil works. I don't think there's any resistor. It's a short duty cycle, and only works with the starter, so not full battery voltage, and not full alternator volts either.

 

[comet424]

ah ok and ya I tried googling wire diagram for it and couldn't find one to show where the wiring goes... and I never tackled the rats nest of wires whatever the hell they did by the side side of the console wires are all over the place looks like a birds nest so never tackled that **** … but ya maybe he knows... I find other Letters for the 310 for wiring diagram not A and not specific wiring lines either

 

[comet424]

ok I get you a pic kf the block heater.. . they cost about 100 bucks from Canadian tire.. its the external ones.. and ya a coil be cheaper to try the 500 for the whole thing... as that valve probably still works right as it doesn't looks damage? but ill get pic

 

[comet424]

maybe block heater wrong words as it not the one that screws into the block.. but this the external kind
but since I never used it yet till you guys mentioned to try it..... as I try to get it on sale unless someone can get it cheaper
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/tank-circulation-engine-heater-0303294p.html#srp

 

[Delmer]

You didn't run that heater without coolant in it, did you? If not, then the wiring is probably the issue, not the element burned out. Take a look at the wiring underneath it, with it unplugged. First check the ohms from one prong to the other prong on the plug. Then see where the "open circuit" or break in the wire is inside the wiring cover.

I'm not too familiar with that style, I see the tin Kat's style tanks all the time, they like to pull wires out, overheat and loosen connections, break wires from flexing, or burn out the thermostat in there. IF you BYPASS the thermostat in there, it will burn out if there's no coolant, but it will almost always burn out if there's no coolant anyway. It could make it more likely to start on fire if you accidentally left it plugged in in your garage all summer too, so be careful IF you BYPASS something as important as a thermostat on a tank heater. I would NEVER do something like THAT.

I have a JD that probably has the same solenoid valve and coil, so I can experiment when I get time, and help you more specifically with the coil if you want to get that fixed eventually. I think Tinkerer has a Case, but we can both help you get it figured out if that's what you want to do.

 

[comet424]

never used the heater in 20 yrs since I got it.. only a couple weeks ago first time I plugged it in.. and reason I knew it wasn't working is the housing gets hot by the touch and usually you hear a clicking least the one fromt he Ctire link I showed I had to replace my leylands tractor... plus when you plug it in or unplug it you hear sparks.. so it never sparked so I knew wasn't working as the one in the ctire link is a 1500 watt version

but I can do an ohms test and didn't know you could take the cover off those units I figured they a sealed unit...
but ill go check the ohms right now

and ya I can use help with the coil.. anything to help me save 500 bucks as I cant blow that in one shot....
but ill be be back and take a look

thank you

 

[comet424]

so I get a 0 ohm reading... as I haven't touched it in 20 yrs since I got it.. so orginal electrical tape lol..
but ya ill take it apart and take a look later today then

 

[Tinkerer]

Yes, Delmer I have a Case 680. But I am really interested in all types and brands of construction equipment after spending my entire life working and mostly running them. That is why I am trying to help Comet in a small way if I can. John Deere de-stroke valves always were a mystery to me. For years I read about the hard starting problem they cause, but didn't read much about it.
When I first read Comet's thread title it got me real interested in learning about them and helping him if I can.
I just thought a resistor would be cheap insurance in the supply voltage line to his coil.
I agree about 12 volts to that coil for short periods of time not doing any harm to it.
I would be curious to see a voltage reading on that starter terminal while the the starter is engaged.