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D8R hot trans?

Discussion in 'Dozers' started by Robert0769, Jun 30, 2019.

  1. Robert0769

    Robert0769 Well-Known Member

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    Did a full maintenance before a job, changed oil, trans, hydraulic, both fuel filters, crankcase filter, the air filters were still very clean. Changed oil.

    I didn't know that there are 2 trans filters, one for steering and one for forward/reverse so I only changed the forward/reverse and not the steering.

    Inside the trans filter housing were some metal shavings. I forgot to check any screens.

    Temp is going up to around 200-210. I went and got a laser thermometer, it would say between 190 and 200. Not sure if it would be hotter if I ran it hotter.

    Symptom is it takes longer to engage in forward or reverse when hot. Steering works fast and strong. Sometimes if I push down hill then stop and try to reverse or even go forward it will not move even with full throttle. This is the only symptom besides higher temp
     
  2. Robert0769

    Robert0769 Well-Known Member

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    Also, the wires going to the trans filter sensor are bypassed, connected together. Nothing is connected to the trans filter sensor. Dunno what this would do
     
  3. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Same tractor as your previous thread with the possibility of oil in the radiator.
    Why start a new thread..? The symptoms you are descrinig could all be related.
    Have you had an engine oil sample analyzed yet..? If not, why not..?

    Is your 190-200 engine coolant temp or transmission oil temp..? If it is transmission then the high temp alarm usually sounds about 240, so you are a ways away from that.

    Did you ever consider reconnecting the filter switch wiring and see what happens..? I would imagine someone else got sick of changing transmission filters because the plugged filter alarm kept sounding (anything to do with the "metal" particles you found maybe..?). Better to find what the problem is and fix it instead of simply disabling the alarm, don't you think..?
     
  4. Robert0769

    Robert0769 Well-Known Member

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    Figured they weren't related but now that you say that I feel a little dumb!

    That's the trans oil temp. There are 2 trans filters right next to each other, one for forward/reverse and one for steering. Steering is consistently 150 degrees. Other is 190-200. Engine and coolant temps are fine.

    I thought the running temp should be under 190. Good to know it can go up to 240. No alarm ever went off.

    Oil and coolant samples are sitting next to me now ready to be sent out tomorrow.

    I will connect the wires and see what happens, also going to get a second trans filter for steering and probably get a sample of both fluids as well.

    I also remembered when the trans was hotter, I'd be pushing down hill and when I was toward the end I would decelerate and it would fall out of gear and roll forward quickly as if in neutral.

    So symptoms are falling out of gear when decelerated, longer time to engage in forward or reverse, sometimes when attempting to go in gear on a steeper hill less than 2:1 it would not move but engine would rev full.

    Hanging on the edge of a cliff playing with tapping brakes until reverse engages sucks! Ha
     
  5. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    If you haven't already done so I think you should be adding a transmission oil sample to the ones you have already taken.

    When you changed the transmission oil and filter you should have also removed and clean the screens. There are two of them. The transmission breather should also have been cleaned at the same time.

    The two filters next to one another are actually for the power train and the hydraulic system. When you open the cover the filter on your right is the power train (transmission) and the one on your left is for the hydraulic system. (There is also a second filter for the hydraulic system inside the hydraulic tank). Another reason that you really need an O&M Manual. You have a machine that's probably worth close to $100k, how come you don't have a $50 manual, and for that matter how come no $100 Parts Manual either..?

    What Part Number filters are you using..? There may be a reason why someone disconnected the plugged filter warning on the power train filter and it's related to the type of filter being used.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
    nicky 68a and kshansen like this.
  6. Robert0769

    Robert0769 Well-Known Member

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    I will get 3 more kits and send more samples.

    There are 3 filters over the right fender. One is accessed from the top and is the hydraulic filter. On the side there are the two transmission filters. Cat said one was forward/reverse and the other is steering.. but they also gave me the wrong water/fuel separator filter so who knows.

    I forgot to check the screens and need to find where they are located. I did not see any screen inside the trans filter housing. I did not know about the trans breather, I asked if there is one but I don't think the person knew what they were doing.

    Trans filter number 132-8875 or AG26B1.

    The filter on the machine that I replaced had a different number. I will get it tomorrow.
     
  7. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    I have to apologize. The LH filter as you look at it is for the steering system, however it is listed in the Hydraulic Lines group which initially gave me the impression it was part of the hydraulic system. Which in fact it is because there is no separate hydraulic tank for the steering. The correct filter element for that housing is a 132-8875 - more on that below.
    The O&M Manual would show you the location of the two screens and the breather. Is the $50 for a manual starting to look more & more attractive..? A clue, the screens are nowhere near the filter and neither is the breather.
    The correct Part Number filter for the transmisison is a 343-4464. There is a Service Article regarding false plugged filter events (the alarm going off in other words) if the 132-8875 element is used in transmission application. Basically the 132-8875 is a quite fine filter relatively-speaking and the restriction it generates in the oil system can cause the filter to bypass and thus set the alarm off in certain circumstances. This may be why someone disconnected the wiring to the bypass switch.
    Quote - "Contamination is one of the major causes of transmission control system failure. Some power train oil systems used Ultra-High Efficiency UHE filters. The use of these filters frequently caused the oil to bypass the filter [and set the alarm off]. The use of UHE filters in power train oil systems is no longer recommended." (The 132-8875 is a UHE filter)

    So in summary you have two identical filter housings right next to one another that are supposed to have different Part Numbers of filter elements inside them. Cool or what...?

    This is the illustration for the hydraulic (steering) lines.
    upload_2019-6-30_19-35-59.png

    This is the illustration for the Power Train (transmission) lines. It doesn't even show the steering filter yet both diagrams are of exactly the same location on the machine........

    upload_2019-6-30_19-37-24.png
     
  8. Robert0769

    Robert0769 Well-Known Member

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    Awesome info! Sounds like I need to get that other filter and switch it with the UHE then move the UHE to the steering

    I wonder if that would have any cause on my symptoms
     
  9. Robert0769

    Robert0769 Well-Known Member

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    Just wanted to confirm that I need one of both filters? Put the UHE filter on the steering and put the other filter on the transmission? Then I also need the trans breather, check trans screens and take oil samples
     
  10. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Yes. One of each. 132-8875 UHE goes in the steering and 343-4464 goes in the trans.
    The breather will probably only need cleaning with parts cleaning colvent, brake cleaner, or diesel. (it's metal).
    Did you get an O&M Manual eventually or do you need the locations of the two screens..?
     
  11. Robert0769

    Robert0769 Well-Known Member

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    I was able to locate the screens. I cut the old filter open and it had lots of metallic shavings. When I opened the filter housing to put the proper filter in, there were metal shavings in the housing that was cleaned out 6 operation hours earlier. I cut open the incorrect 6 hour used filter and there was very little in it but there was some stuff that didn't look metallic. Obviously the steering system is very dirty. This time I collected the oil from the housing in a clear bag to see it instead of a black container. I didn't realize how black it is. The dipstick makes it look so clear. I've taken a sample of both the steering and the trans oil and sent it in. I sent in all the metal shavings to CAT premature failure department and they will tell me where the metal is from. When I get a new steering filter tomorrow and replace it, that will let me look for contaminants in the steering system for the first time. It looks like it might be motor oil in the hydraulic system, CAT will let me know. They said motor oil won't hurt the hydraulic system.

    I will check the screens when I change the trans oil by mid next week sometime.

    I did reconnect the trans filter sensor and with mid to high rev the light blinks.
     
  12. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    The shavings were from the transmission filter housing and not the steering filter, correct..?

    I know you sadi that you changed al the filters by did you change the oil in either the transmission or the hydraulic system..? (The Cat dealer is correct BTW, engine oil will not hurt a hydraulic system.)

    It appears that you have found the reason why the trans filter sensor wiring was removed. I'd suggest that you do nothing until you have changed the oil next week. The correct oil for the transmission is an SAE30 that meets Cat TO-4 specification. Don't be tempted to huy parts store brand, use a good quality (major oil company) product, or even use Cat oil if they have any sort of promotion. Often Cat oil is discounted if you buy filters as well and becomes as cheap as anything out there.
     
  13. Robert0769

    Robert0769 Well-Known Member

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    Correct, shavings in transmission housing and filter the first time then more shavings in the housing the second time when wrong filter was replaced. I haven't opened the steering yet.

    I asked for every filter but Cat was having a bad day and didn't know there was a steering filter. I did change the hydraulic filter but not the steering which runs off the hydraulic as well.

    I did send in a sample of hydraulic and transmission oil

    Hmm I've been up all night fighting with myself and whether I should take another day off and change the trans oil or work and buy another filter when I change it.

    I think I will just use the excavator to move the dirt being dropped off in to a pile so they have room to drop off more and spend the rest of the day changing the trans oil on the dozer.
     
  14. Robert0769

    Robert0769 Well-Known Member

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    I did not change the hydraulic or trans oil. I will change both
     
  15. Robert0769

    Robert0769 Well-Known Member

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    It was recommended that I warm up the trans oil before draining because if it's cold less impurities will come out. Do you agree?
     
  16. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Any oil generally drains better when it is warm, and therefore is more likely to bring out any contamination with the oil when you pull the drain plug. The manual actually states to get the transmission oil warm before draining it.

    Make sure that you pull the two screens and clean them when you drain the transmission oil (note that there are 2 oil drain points, one on the torque converter housing, the other on the transmission). Take photos of what you find on each one. The reason for saying that is that one screen is for the suction from the torque converter (illustration below) and will be crucial in deciding if the metal you found in the filter housing is coming from the transmission or from the converter.

    It will be necessary to disconnect a hose to remove each of the screens. Make sure that you have a new O-Ring for each hose, because guaranteed the O-Rings you remove will be flat and hard. You do not want to risk the possibility of creating an air leak on the suction side of the tranmission oil system by re-using the old O-Rings.

    upload_2019-7-4_11-28-3.png
     
  17. Mobiltech

    Mobiltech Senior Member

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    I think if you have repeated contamination of the trans filter you better prepare for a complete trans and torque rebuild. I would start by pulling the trans pump. The symptoms you list like loss of trans pressure sound like a failing trans pump.
    Make sure you do the auxiliary drive gear bearings and rear crank seal while you have the torque converter out.
     
  18. Robert0769

    Robert0769 Well-Known Member

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    Loss of trans pressure as in the one time it wouldn't reverse or while I'm decelerating going down hill it falls out of gear and wants to go 100 mph off a cliff?

    Or both?
     
  19. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    The symptoms you describe above could be related to the pump starting to fail and could also possibly explain the presence of the metallic particles you found in the filter housing.

    HOWEVER, you also say you found non-metallic particles. These could easily be friction material from transmission clutches but without photos of the particles it's difficult to give an opinion. So given the combination of particle types it's highly probable that more than one component in the powertrain is going South at this time.

    The failure to engage reverse or falling out of gear when decelerating downhill could be related to either a pump problem or low oil level in the transmission . When working on steep sloes you can actually add 10% above the normal specified capacity of oil in the transmission to prevent the possibility of the transmission pump sucking air.

    Do you know how many hours are on the transmission or torque converter in the tractor, also do you know if ther have ever been overhauled..?

    I will add one other component to the list - the powertrain oil cooler. If (as seems increasingly likely) you have to go into components like the transmission and the converter as a result of large quantities of particles in the system, it would be false economy not to replace the cooler at the same time, because it will be at minimum partially plugged.
     
    Mobiltech likes this.
  20. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    Have you gotten the sample results back yet. I would likely wait to plan out any repairs until I got all the information in. I would hate changing oil and then have to dump it because something inside a component of a system was coming apart.