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D6c cat loss of oil pressure

Discussion in 'Dozers' started by Steve.ahlgren85, Nov 13, 2016.

  1. Junkyard

    Junkyard Senior Member

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    If you want to get serious and mean I'll DONATE my time to explain how they screwed the pooch. I've won two lawsuits pro se plus did 99% of my divorce that way. Learned myself a lot I did!!
     
    mikebramel likes this.
  2. 51kw

    51kw Well-Known Member

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    Steve, I don't think anyone from there would stoop low enough to look at this thread. It would admit they do not know it all. This thread was brought to their attention in Bloomington a long time ago. They showed NO interest in trivial matters like this thread.
     
  3. Wes J

    Wes J Senior Member

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    I had some spare time tonight so I read through most of the 47 pages. Wow. It's so easy to get yourself upside down on an old machine like this.

    It's easy to point fingers after the fact, but I think the owner of the machine deserves a lot of blame here, but the dealer didn't do much better. This is a classic example of multiple people throwing parts (very, very expensive parts) at a problem and never actually fixing the problems. As a fixer of machines, perhaps my view is jaded, but this is how I see it:

    Seems very likely that the radiator blockage and overheating is what actually killed the original engine. The oil pressure loss was just a final nail in the coffin.

    So the OP throws a totally different engine at the machine and mixes and matches the parts. This creates a new issue with low oil pressure to the bottom end. The jetting oil at the rocker arms absolutely could have killed the motor. The oil takes the path of least resistance. If a passage is wide open, all the oil goes there instead of where it is needed.

    Now the Cat dealer has to sort out an antique machine with several simultaneous problems that has been hacked together by an amateur. They fixed the oiling issue but missed the original issue just like the owner did.

    It sure does seem like someone (especially a trained Cat mechanic) should have figured out the stupid thing was overheating. Burned up valves and pistons. What's that got to do with oil pressure? How do they explain that once they tested the injection pump? It has classic overheating issues. Burned up 6 and starting to burn 5. Is it a coincidence that those are furthest from the water pump?

    The OP screwed up, and he knows that. So he did a sensible thing and paid the experts to make it right. The dealer screwed up, but they don't want to admit it.

    I would absolutely hire a lawyer. How could they send the machine out without checking the water temp?
     
    51kw, Vetech63 and 63 caveman like this.
  4. Junkyard

    Junkyard Senior Member

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    Exactly. Back in the day when I was at the tractor dealer any new tractor, new engine or engine O/H got time on the dyno to make sure it was right. By time I mean several hours at dang near full rated PTO HP.
     
  5. thepumpguysc

    thepumpguysc Senior Member

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    It sounds as if they did a "parking lot run" w/ it..
    Engine on blocks, a jug of fuel, a battery & a radiator or a hose stuck in the water pump.. no gauges..
    Made sure it started.. revved it up a couple of times & that was it..

    When my Co. does Govt engines.. the contract is written-up w/ an 8 HOUR CONTINOUS RUN at FULL LOAD.!!!! NO KIDDING..
    & if FOR ANY REASON the engine is shut down.. the clock is reset..
    AND>> Its verified by an Govt inspector.. theres a guy sitting next to the engine for 8 hours checking>> HP, torque, temp & oil pressure EVERY 15 minutes.. & checking for leaks..
    We once got low on fuel & had to BEG the fuel co to come fill the fuel tank.. we were 7 hrs into an 8 hr run..
    Luckily they came & topped off the fuel tank..
     
  6. Vetech63

    Vetech63 Senior Member

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    When installing an engine, even if it has been floor run, it should be installed in the machine and ran to operating temperature....with all engine pressures and temps checked. Sure an amateur started this, but it went to SUPPOSED professionals that are SUPPOSEDLY highly trained and skilled. When the engine was built, ran and installed by CAT, its their baby when it goes out the door. They should be standing behind their work and not passing the buck to the customer. All too often these things always happen to the little guy. If this was a large company that buys millions of dollars worth of parts, equipment, and service..........they would be rebuilding this on them.......no questions asked.
     
    51kw likes this.
  7. kshansen

    kshansen Senior Member

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    Very true I know of two cases like that. A 769C and a 980G.
    Did a little digging in old files just to be sure I was accurate with facts:
    One was a 3408 in a 769C truck. In March of 2001 with 13,700 hours on engine it was pulled and taken to dealer for rebuild. After it was put back in service it ran good till August of 2001, total hours used 650. That is when all hell broke loose and major failure with one rod laying on the ground behind truck and block almost split in two. Cat ate that one saying it was a bearing failure.

    Then in March of 2009 the 980 G was taken to dealer for "Before failure Rebuild" on engine and transmission at 18,622 hours. Machine came back and seemed fine. That was till 6/17/10 when it started to have a miss on #4 cylinder that was found to be a bent push rod. Cat had no real answer and suggested installing new push rods in that cylinder. Seem good again till 6/29/10. at 21.350 hours the #4 miss was back. That time due to one push rod making it down in to the oil pan I had to remove pan to retrieve it. That is when I found a broken piece of one of the retainer clips for the lifters/cam followers laying in the pan. Cat sent a man out to look at it and found he could not remove one of the lifters for #4 and also saw damage on cam. Loader went to dealer who installed a reman short block. This was on an engine rebuild with 15 months use and 2,688 hours on it!

    So yes a big outfit can get special treatment from a dealer, or at least fair treatment when there is a failure either of materials or workmanship.
     
  8. Vetech63

    Vetech63 Senior Member

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    2,688 hours on it!
    Sounds like my C9 for the D6T.........and CAT will do nothing. Customer just doesn't spend enough money with them to be considered for assistance.:rolleyes:
     
  9. Steve.ahlgren85

    Steve.ahlgren85 Senior Member

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    Yes, I admit that I made my share of mistakes on my machine, but there's something just not right about this. Why should I ,after paying for the first rebuild at Ziegler caterpillar, expecting to have an engine with new parts and dependable ready for work,have to pay again for the same rebuild? To me it's like having a new engine put in an older car at a major dealership, having it fail, taking it back to the dealership and they will not fix the problem without payment first. Just not right!
     
    51kw and balls2go like this.
  10. thepumpguysc

    thepumpguysc Senior Member

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    NOW your getting it Steve..
     
    DoyleX, balls2go, spitzair and 3 others like this.
  11. Wes J

    Wes J Senior Member

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    Yes. You are right. I hope you have not signed anything regarding giving them the machine or any money.
     
    kshansen and 51kw like this.
  12. Steve.ahlgren85

    Steve.ahlgren85 Senior Member

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    Haven't signed anything or sent money. My lawyer said that it will come down to me proving negligence on their part,my expert mechanic witness against theirs letting an arbitrator decide.
     
    51kw likes this.
  13. Wes J

    Wes J Senior Member

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    I think you have a good chance of getting out of paying for most of the work they did and keeping your machine. You have no chance of them fixing the machine or "making things right". I'd forget about that.

    Get the lawyer to start harassing them and get the machine out of their shop. Then work on the bill. You may end up paying for any parts that were not damaged.

    That still leaves you right back where you started, with a broken machine. I guess you could then do another reman and this time fix the cooling system.

    If you drug it to the scrap yard, I'd understand.
     
  14. oldirt

    oldirt Senior Member

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    cat will never let this go to court. don't get greedy, just ask for legal costs plus whatever they screwed up in that motor.

    somehow, you need to get that tractor home because if they think they will have to pay up you will most likely find a couple surprises that they left you and you should try to find them first. getbacks are.. well.. you know.
     
    balls2go likes this.
  15. 5500bill

    5500bill New Member

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    Should also send a copy of this thread and any emails and paper work from dealer to cat's regional rep. i worked in a ford dealership, once you get the reps and corporate involved things have a way of happening. A letter from your lawyer also helps. The dealer may have a history of screw ups with the company. Corporate does not like unhappy customers.
     
  16. Hobbytime

    Hobbytime Senior Member

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    no matter what the outcome and you get the machine back, I would have a good mechanic take a look and make sure the dealership didnt sabotage it to go boom or screw with other items on it as they wont be happy letting it go...I know too many shady repair shops that have done that to get even with a customer that was in the right after they tried to screw them with $$..
     
  17. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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    You should get your machine back in proper running condition. Even if they put a good used engine in it. You paid for a rebuild at the Cat dealership not some fly-by-night backyard wannabe shop. Cat doesn't have dealerships like Maaco body shops that offer budget, standard and premium jobs based on how much you want to spend. In other words they are supposed to do a premium job and check everything before releasing your machine to you. They have to live up to Cat standards and that's why they are the authorized dealer. It's also a big part of why Cat is as big as they are. They charge a premium for this service but it is to give you piece of mind it was done right and should be as good as new. They shouldn't be cutting any steps out unless they were specifically told to or like another poster, they had the rad done themselves but at the same shop the dealer uses. If you don't want to pay for the Cat dealer to do it, go somewhere else.

    An arbitrator? Sometimes you can go to an arbitrator if both sides agree but it doesn't necessarily stop a lawsuit from being filed. Sometimes both parties can meet on their own but it's not common. Often once a claim is filed with the court, there will be a pre-trial meeting with a judge or an arbitrator where both sides basically lay their cards on the table to see if it can be resolved without having to go through the court. If the plaintiff isn't satisfied he/she can still pursue the claim in court. It can be settled right up to the time you're walking into court or even in court before all the testimony is finished. The court date can bring the bluffers to reconsider their position. You don't normally get all your legal costs back but if it is clearly obvious that the matter shouldn't have went to court and wasted the courts time, you can be awarded court costs and sometimes additional costs as well. Steve wouldn't have to worry about this since he spent thousands of dollars at the dealership and still doesn't have a proper running engine after month's and years of being patient.

    I can't see the dealer talking their way out of this. They can't even get their story straight on what caused the problem. Then they offer to buy the machine only to change their mind again and want to keep it along with $4000. Kind of pathetic really. They really should man up and fix what they were hired and paid to do!
     
  18. oarwhat

    oarwhat Senior Member

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    Here's where I see the problem. Your expert against Caterpillar . An arbitrator or judge will likely believe Caterpillar over your guy. The other problem is how confusing it'll be to a non mechanic. Was it low oil pressure? Over heating? Did the new gauge fail? Did they install a new gauge? Was it aftermarket parts? Was it the wrong rocker shaft? Was the radiator plugged enough to cause the failure?

    Let me ask everyone on here what caused the failure???? I don't think anyone on here really knows. In my opinion I don't think he ever ran it long enough to overheat it with a plugged radiator or low oil pressure.
     
  19. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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    I'm thinking if they did their so called stall test, they started the machine and had the test done in 10 or 15 minutes. If it failed driving a cross a field before it did any work, there's no way they could have got it up to full operating temperature and thoroughly tested it. I think having a knowledgeable mechanic will be an advantage but so will having the official Cat overhaul procedure. I think they would have to prove they followed the procedure outlined by Cat. Cat has a procedure and manuals for just about everything to with heavy equipment from overhauling to how to get the best production. A judge or arbitrator could also question that thousands of dollars was spent at the Cat dealer to fix a Cat engine and they didn't or couldn't fix it. Offering to buy the machine and then wanting to keep it along with more money leads me to believe someone did come along after the fact and try to put all the blame on Steve and none on the them.
     
  20. oarwhat

    oarwhat Senior Member

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    I reread my post and it sounds like I don't think Caterpillar is at fault. Not at all I just think it's not going to be easy to prove it it an arbitrator or judge.