D3B LGP on fresh water lake ice-tomorrow!

[smoothoperator]

We have a short section (1200 ft.) of road covered with ice. It has been raised several times since flooding started in '93, and it seems like we can't stay ahead of it. Limited funds, inadequate help from FEMA, and a water level that just keeps rising puts us where we are today. The road gets plowed every time we get a few inches of snow, and the banks on either side are now nearing six feet high, and plug tight with any amount of blowing snow. The ice was checked today, and measures between 13" and 15". We need to push back these banks, and that means we will be pushing out onto the lake, over about 30' of water. We have never had to do this before, and I was wondering if anyone could tell us if we are taking a huge risk doing this, or if it no big deal. D3B LGP, <18,000lbs. Any advice would be appreciated.

smoothoperator...would rather stay on top of the ice

 

[Bandit44]

Be sure and wear your life jacket!!

 

[Alan]

I doubt you will be able to get traction enough to push anything on that ice and any steering control will be purely luck. You may also find some weak ice right at the shoreline and if it drops down under you, even if there isn't a lot of water to worry about, you might not be able to get out.

 

[curbside]

I would be real careful and would want a test done where the snow is deepest. If those large banks of snow are actully on the water the ice will be at its thinest right where you will be pushing into the snow as the snow banks will act as huge insulators to the lake. Just for further thought 12-15 inches of ice is considered safe for a pick up truck. I would think you are playing dangerous with a 18000 lb machine. Maybe use a bobcat with a blower even then you will be over the recommended weight for 12-15 inches

 

[smoothoperator]

Lifejacket, jetpack, and a long rope! The lake has a thin crust of snow, so there will be some traction for pushing and directional control. The slope of the existing roadbed under the ice is probably between 3:1 and 1:1, depending on how much was carried away by wave action last fall. No water flow across the roadbed under the ice, so it should be solid. I'll let you know how it goes.

smoothoperator

 

[smoothoperator]

Thanks curbside, I think we need to consider all of the possible problems, and their solutions, before we put a machine w/operator on the ice. A track-type Bobcat w/blower was mentioned, but the plan is still to use the D3. I will pass all ideas to the boss and crew in the morning. Nothing is worth taking a chance on dropping someone through the ice.

smoothoperator

 

[swampdog]

If it were me going out there, I'd want to be on an open machine (without a roof) and ready to jump.

Like others said, the ice near the shore might be the thinnest and weakest. But even farther out could also be dangerous with only 13 to 15 inches of ice.

I had my 39 hp tractor on the ice a few weeks ago clearing a skating rink and had no problem, but it only weighs about 5000 lbs. There is absolutely no way I would take a very heavy machine out there!!

We had a grader go through the ice on a lake here clearing a spot for winter ice events; that was in February a few years ago when the ice should have been two to three feet thick.

Svein Sigfussen wrote a book about his experiences freighting on northern lakes. They used fairly light crawlers, but dropped them through the ice all the time anyway. They lost a few men too.

 

[JimInOz]

SmoothOp,
I wonder if a D21 Komatsu or a BD2 Mitsubishi might be a little safer.Both are about 40HP/4 tonnes,& come with apex or standard shoes,plus PAT or Straight blades.Those things just about walk on water...
BD2F swampie has about 3.2 PSI & the standard track has 4.9.

Where is KoO when you need him?....he knows about falling thru the ice.
Last time I saw ice was in the freezer....

Jim

 

[RonG]

If I were to push snow on questionable ice I would ramp it up to a few feet deep right at the very start.That would distribute the weight and take care of the traction problem as well.
My dad used to say that 1" would hold a man,2" would hold a horse and 3" would hold a car.That was back in the model "A" days to be sure but I think that 15" of solid new ice should be plenty.I would do it based on these criteria.Ron G

 

[Tony]

Just a suggestion....not sure that it would work for your application.

For the sake of safety, I would rent a long reach excavator, say a Komatsu PC220 size machine. Then you can sit on your roadway, where you know you have a solid underfooting, and cast your snow away 50' in either direction.

While it would definitely take more time than using a dozer, the safety factor would be much greater. With the right operator, you'd be surprised with what can be done with a machine like this.

Good luck,
Tony

 

[watglen]

I wouldn't even consider it. What does this job pay, and who pays to repair it when you swamp it. Even if nobody drowns, it stands to be a huge loss, huge risk, and for what?

Loader, excavator and trucks, and keep it all on hard ground, and be thankful your kids get to keep you around.

Besides, you don't want your work to end up on youtube do you? People love to have fun with operators who sink machines, you'll never live it down.

 

[curbside]

If I were to push snow on questionable ice I would ramp it up to a few feet deep right at the very start.That would distribute the weight and take care of the traction problem as well.
My dad used to say that 1" would hold a man,2" would hold a horse and 3" would hold a car.That was back in the model "A" days to be sure but I think that 15" of solid new ice should be plenty.I would do it based on these criteria.Ron G

I've seen a lot of 1 inch ice that will not hold a man. I would first want to see you on the ice first. 3 inch for a horse man I wouldn't even consider it. Here's a chart from North Dakota Fish and game.




Ice Rules

As stated before, no ice is ever safe ice. However, many state agencies, such as the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) have come up with a suggested amount of good, clear ice there should be on a body of water before venturing on it with various modes of transportation. Remember this is only a guide, use your instincts and knowledge and inspect the ice before venturing on it.

The DNR recommends the following activities be conducted when at there is at least the following amount of good clear ice on the water body.

Less than 4 inches – STAY OFF! There is no reason to test the newly formed ice at this time.

4-6 Inches – Ice fishing, foot travel in single-file lines, and small spaced seating on the ice should be safe, presuming the ice is clear and clean.

6-10 Inches – Snowmobiles and ATV’s can travel safely on good ice that is over inches thick.

10-16 Inches – Small cars and pick-ups can begin to venture on to the ice. However, the DNR states that it is best to avoid driving on the ice whenever possible.

16+ Inches – A medium-sized car or mid-size pickup can drive on good clear solid ice.


Ice Thickness Chart from the ND Game & Fish Dept

 

[swampdog]

My dad used to say that 1" would hold a man,2" would hold a horse and 3" would hold a car.That was back in the model "A" days to be sure but I think that 15" of solid new ice should be plenty.I would do it based on these criteria.Ron G

Ron, please have the camera running when you drive out on 3" ice with a car!!

 

[cummins05]

how bout getting a snow cat in they have really low ground pressure and we use them alot on lakes and muskeg.

 

[OneWelder]

any place there is a spring in the lake the ice will be a lot thinner than every place around it

 

[tripper_174]

I'm with curbside on this one. I've worked on ice roads in northern Manitoba. That doesn't make me an expert but it sure has given me a lot of respect for ice..or the lack of it. Under those banks will be dangerous. Not only will the ice be thin but also there is a lot of weight on that piece of ice before you get your tractor there.

Ropes, life jackets, nice in theory but things happen so fast you can barely react. Furthermore, in deep water the hole often closes up over you and leaves you no escape. If it were me I'd definately look at a plan "b" like the skid steer and blower or another 10 - 15 inches of ice. Just my opinion but neighbour, I'd like to see ya adding more posts this summer!

 

[BIG D]

ice dozing

Hello last winter the small contractor my cousin workks for got a job repairing shoreline in the area of th madison campus of the university of wisc they thought the ice thick enough for a 763 bobcat about the third time out on the ice the bobcat went through they pulled it our with a wrecker but in was in front of about 1000 UW students enough said about that just this year a dump trick driver lost his life hauling bolders on ice. My sugestion rent a excavator and install the bucket backwards and push the bank out this way thank the BIG D

 

[wnydirtguy]

be careful. sounds a bit risky for a D3. a skidsteer or if you have a ASV dealer near by. The ASV has lgp and can push a lot. we have a RC-100 and it can push about as mush as or 650 JD dozer. just a thought. good luck. interested to hear how you make out.

 

[KTBAUGH]

i could see that it might be ok to drive something with tires across ice that thick but a dozer makes alot of vibration to the ground. the dozer would not be my choice of equipment to use. just my thoughts.

kent baugh
www.ktbaugh.com

 

[smoothoperator]

I relayed all of the warnings to the crew this morning. The quality of the 13" to 15" of ice was not good, but the operation went on as planned. No breakthroughs, but lots of water coming up through the test holes made for a slushy mess on top. It will take another full day (at least) to finish, so hopefully everyone's luck will last until the project is done. Thanks to everyone for the replies, sorry I couldn't get back sooner-server problems that I couldn't fix. Our equipment budget is limited, so we are using what we have. D3, and if that doesn't work, an E120B Cat trackhoe and 140H to carry the snow down the road. I hope I'm not making this seem more dramatic than it is, but I have lots of respect for heavy equipment operating on questionable quality ice. If someone falls through, it's too late to rethink your decision. Updates tomorrow, goodnight for now.

smoothoperator