D333 To 3306 conversion possible??

[ferrret3238]

First time poster, long time reader. I have a 966 b caterpillar end loader from 1964 I believe. The original engine blew and it was replaced with a d333 from a motor grader. The d333 is a small bore 4.5 inch with a block number of 7M4400 and a crank number of 8M4502. The motor grader d333 has spun a bearing and is already ground 20-20 so the crank is junk. I have been looking for a 8M4502 crank, which is a 5.5" stroke instead of all I have called on that are a 6.0" stroke. Seems this is a gray area that some 8M4502's are listed as a 6.0" stroke. It also needs new liners, pistons, and a gasket kit. It has been a nightmare trying to find decent useable parts for this old of a motor. I was wondering if the back end of the D333 that bolts to the bellhousing is the same as a 3306? I have to use my bellhousing because that's the way they drive the hydraulic pump. I can make hoses and tubes to reroute the oil, water and air lines but I can't change the location of the hydraulic pump driven from the bellhousing gears. I have a lead on a 3306 PC #23C02271 for $1000 but needs a little tweaking I think and it would be easier to get 3306 parts. Hopefully somebody has been through this before and can shed some light on my situation.

 

[Old Magnet]

From what information I have acquired the D330c/D333c (4-3/4" bore 6" stroke) will interchange with 3304/3306 engines but the D330/D333 (4-1/2" bore 5-1/2" stroke) will not. Yes there seems to be a lot of industry confusion between the two.

 

[ferrret3238]

These are the pictures of the bellhousing and the flat plate is of the gear housing at the drive end of the engine. The hollow gear slips over the end of the crank and gets sandwitched between the crank and the flywheel. A gear meshes with it and then another drives the hydraulic pump. A call to caterpillar came up loosely that the flat plate would bolt to a 3306 and that's how this bellhousing adapts to a 966b transmission. The plate crosses over to a 3306 in a 973 track loader. I wish there was a 3306 block nearby that I could just take the plate over to and see if it matches up for sure. Hopefully most all 3306's have the same drive end bolt pattern.

 

[Old Magnet]

If you can direct match cross over parts your chances of conversion are way better.
Beware there are oil passage plugs and connections that need to match up at the rear of the engine.
Also there are differences in locating dowels.

 

[ferrret3238]

My only other question / problem is how much horsepower / torque will the newer 3306 have? My d333 is a turbo and the 3306 is not. The 3306 is a mid 90's model I think so it will have more hp in general due to new technology but how much? The guy that owns the 3306 said it has a 3/8 plate between the head and block instead of the 1" plate. Am I correct in assuming that the thicker plate is for less compression for a turbo application? Could I put the d333 turbo on the 3306 or do I even need to? Is there a way to look up hp and torque ratings for a 3306 PC #23C02271 engine?

 

[Cmark]

23C02271 was shipped 1st Feb 1990 and is specced at 150hp at 2200rpm. I can't say I've ever seen a 1" spacer plate. More info on this please?

 

[ferrret3238]

I don't know much about the spacer plate in the 3306, I was told by the guy selling it that somebody came and looked at it and didn't want it because the spacer plate was the thinner 3/8 inch one. Apparently there is a larger plate on some variants of 3306's but I'm not sure even how thick they are, all I know is that there's a difference according to him. I don't have a picture of his engine right now but if you google a 3306, on some of them you can see a spacer plate between the block and the head. The engine I have is a 96F1256 D333T that caterpillar says is from a 1964 14D road grader. The D333t is around 150 hp also so I my not even need the turbo on it.

 

[kshansen]

23C02271 was shipped 1st Feb 1990 and is specced at 150hp at 2200rpm. I can't say I've ever seen a 1" spacer plate. More info on this please?

Same here. did some Google searching on spacer plate and did not find anything. could this be something for a natural gas engine? That said seems somewhere I had heard of an engine where they cut the counter bores in to the spacer plate in place of the block, maybe an earlier version of the design?

 

[Old Magnet]

The original 966B D333T (4-1/2" bore) was rated at 150 hp @2,200 flrpm. (rack setting based on actual s/n)
The 14D 96F1256 engine D333T (4-1/2" bore) was rated at 140 hp @ 1900 flrpm. (rack setting 0.080")
Spacer plate on the late 3306 is 0.3925" thick. Don't know anything about a 1" spacer plate.

Seems the range of hp your looking at will work between the three engines. Using the 3306 without turbo.

 

[ferrret3238]

That would be great if I didn't need to hook the turbo up to it. It would be a pain to reroute all the air lines and try to get a oil line up to it and make it work. Even if the housing for the gears between the block and bellhousing is different maybe I could machine it to fit as a worst case scenario. The thick 1" head plate I don't know anything about. He said its a diesel that came out of a railcar mining crane and it had a exhaust scrubber hooked to it to run in the mine. One would generally think that a thicker plate = less compression = turbo, natural gas or lp operation, Thinner plate = more compression = diesel. Maybe someone with a gas generator 3306 would know, not sure if they even made them. I'm going to figure out shipping and probably go for it and try to make it work.

 

[Old Magnet]

Your covering unfamiliar ground to say the least. Entirely different block between the D333 and D333C/3306.
Be an interesting project and how it works out. How tight a space do you have on the other end as the D333C/3306 has a gear drive water pump which is not as compact as the belt drive D333 version.

 

[ferrret3238]

Here's a picture of the rear of my D333T to compare, maybe someone might have a pic of the rear of a 3306 for comparison? There's a bit of room in the front of the engine and I may be able to move the radiator out farther if needed. Hopefully it doesn't stick out on the sides too much either but I have room for that.

 

[ferrret3238]

Its been a while since I posted on this as I was waiting on a engine for the loader. The 3306 showed up and looks good to go. I had to remove the bellhousing from the 3306 and replace the back end with my intermediate plate, the gear train that bolts to it, the gear on the crankshaft, and finally bolt up the bellhousing from the d333. Also install the flywheel from the d333. I had to remove a frost plug at the very end of the main oil passage and put a orifice in from the d333 to oil the gear train too, Almost overlooked that part. The 3306 was a 12volt so I had to reuse my 24 volt starter which was no problem since it bolts to the original bellhousing. All the stuff on the rear of the engine was a exact fit, it all bolted up fine without any problems, the front was a different story.
The front of the 3306 is about .75" shorter than the d333 so I had to find centerline of the crank and weld the brackets from the 3306 to the d333 motor mount with .75 bar stock vertical between the mounts. After it was welded up I cut away the center of the D333 bracket so this left room for the crankshaft damper and pulley to fit back against the engine. The fan pulley was part of the water pump on the D333 so of course the 3306 would be in the wrong place. I had to machine out a bracket to relocate the fan pulley up and over about 5 inches to be in the center of the radiator when it goes on. The alternator was a lot easier. I just had to drill a hole in the motor mount and make a few spacers for It and reuse the original slide adjuster.
I need to finish up the compressor intake, some oil lines, the air shutoff for the injector pump, and wire it for the controls and gauges and maybe it will run!! I am in need of some information of where some of the hoses go also if anybody has a good diagram of a 3306 and where the connections go? Like the thermostat, oil gauge, air shutoff line for the injector. Also It looks like a thermal valve that comes off the rear of the engine, controlled by the exhaust temperature and it looks like it oils the water pump? Hopefully that's right? Ill keep updating when I get some more figured out. It has been a interesting project so far.

 

[ferrret3238]

More Photos. Not sure how to get them as photos and not attachments. Hopefully people can see them

 

[kshansen]

First off do you have a S/N off this "new" engine and what it came out of?

In the picture below I'm at a loss to know what that box like thing on top of the head is, I marked it with a red "X".

As for the thermostat it should be mounted under the casting that has four 3/8 inch bolts with the hose coming off the topped, circled it in green.

Also not understanding what the "air shut off line for injector" means. All the older Cats I was around the shut off for the engine was worked by pulling the foot peddle back past a detent to put pump in "no-fuel" position.

Oh just remembered the oil pressure gauge hook-up point on most of the 3306 engine I knew was and 1/8 pipe fitting near the right rear corner of the block up fairly close to the head as I recall, believe it was at the rear cam bearing area. When I say front or right and left on engine I am talking as the flywheel end is the rear and right side is if you were standing behind the engine at the flywheel end looking towards the front. So rear of machine is where the front of the engine is and left side of machine is right side of machine, at least for a loader!

 

[ferrret3238]

That's the way I look at it also. The bellhousing is the rear and the fan is the front. The S/N is 3306 PC #23C02271. It came out of a mining crane of some sort so I don't really know the make of the machine it came out of. I am assuming it had a few extra things added to it being it was for mining service. The thing in the picture with a red x is some sort of intake box with a shutoff damper in it. I'm assuming again its a air shutoff to kill the engine. The thermostat housing that contains the thermostat, Is that where the water temp sender goes? There's some plugs there that I could plug into but was wondering if its better there or in the head? The oil pressure I kinda figured out but was wondering If I could tee it off of the main oil passage in the block on the intercooler side of the engine?
I'm assuming again that the lever on the injector pump is the no fuel or fuel shutoff lever? On this engine there is a air or oil cylinder that pushes the lever over to open or shut off the fuel? It looks like it might have been a problem and was moved so it might not even work either.

 

[Cmark]

I'm assuming again that the lever on the injector pump is the no fuel or fuel shutoff lever? On this engine there is a air or oil cylinder that pushes the lever over to open or shut off the fuel? It looks like it might have been a problem and was moved so it might not even work either.

That will be low oil pressure emergency shutdown.

 

[kshansen]

When I put in the 23C02271 S/N in SIS this is what I see:

Not sure about the PC NA and High Compression designation. To me NA would mean Naturally Aspirated, in other words Non-Turbo engine. Was a turbo going to be used on this installation?

A little more digging does show that this engine had a mechanical emergency shut down system for over temp or low oil pressure which I would guess is what controls that lever on the fuel pump.

 

[ferrret3238]

That's interesting that it lists it as a D333c. The original D333C is a turbo but the new 3306 does not have a turbo on it. It says 150hp on the tag on the engine and the original D333C was 140hp so I should be fine I think. I had never thought of a low oil pressure shutdown but now it makes sense. There's also what looks like to me a thermal activated valve on the exhaust manifold with a few oil lines running to it also. I would believe it to be the over temp shoutdown also that sends oil to the emergency fuel cutoff shutdown solenoid.

 

[kshansen]

Here's a bit more info that may or may not be of any use: