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D11N governor issue

Discussion in 'Dozers' started by Rihpper, Apr 12, 2021.

  1. Rihpper

    Rihpper Active Member

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    I see, very interesting. What’s the overall consensus on the 3508 vs the C32? Quinn has been trying to get us to repower it with a tier 3 C32.
     
  2. Cmark

    Cmark Senior Member

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    Can't comment on the ins and outs of that particular repower but the C32 is the latest version of the 3412. A whole class smaller than the 3500 series.
    3400 series is 5.4" bore.
    3500 series is 6.7" bore.
     
  3. Rihpper

    Rihpper Active Member

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    So the C32 is basically a stroked C27/3412? I talked to one of the Quinn techs and he was saying that you lose a few thousand pounds of weight going from 3508 to C32 Which would be a problem for us as we’re already light in the front because we don’t have the blade on.
     
  4. Cmark

    Cmark Senior Member

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    Basically, yes. C32 is 5.7 x 6.4" V12. C27 is 5.4 x 6.0" V12. Both (as far as I'm aware) share the same platform.
     
  5. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    C32 is the engine model used in the current model D11T tractor. I haven't been around one yet so I have no idea how it performs compared to the former 3508C engine. (We had C32s in 777F trucks and they seemed to go OK, but a tractor application is a totally different ball game.)
    The D10T uses a C27 which is the latter-day equivalent of the venerable 3412 which of course is what the D10N & R models had. Plenty of experience with them and they seem to run pretty well.

    TBH the investment required IMHO to install all the electronics necessary to run a C32 in a 30 y/o tractor ought to be a non-starter from a cost perspective. Surmising...... I would have expected with the level of electronics on a C32 that it would really interface better with an electronically-controlled transmission, not the cable-controlled one on your particular tractor. Furthermore I don't see any documentation in the system to support a 3508 MUI-C32 engine conversion in a D11N. Ask Quinn to show you the "Special Instruction" detailing the conversion.

    I posted the conversion information for a 3508 EUI a few posts back. That ought to be a better route I would have thought because the EUI engine could be built exactly the same way as the MUI and mechanically would pretty much be a straight drop in replacement. Obviously the engine electrical system and its connections would change a bit.
     
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  6. Rihpper

    Rihpper Active Member

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    Yes, the repower is very expensive, it only makes sense if you get a grant from the state for lower emissions, and it’s still expensive... I thought I had found online a while ago a cat teir 2 3508b conversation for the d11n, do you see that? Or just the tier 1 you posted?

    Ok I will ask about the special instruction.

    We have repowerd one of our D10Ns 2yd with a c27 and they did not change any transmission controls. Everything seams to work ok with it.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  7. Rihpper

    Rihpper Active Member

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    I assume the later d11Rs were tier 2? Does anyone know if cat made a tier 3 3508?
     
  8. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    I'm not sure even if the latest generation of the D11R was Tier 2. I get the impression they were Tier 1 but I'll need to dig a bit more to confirm that.
    The reason I say that is the last generation of 11Rs (before the T model came along) that were built with an electronic 3508 engine from the get-go have a C32 retrofit available, but that retrofit is only a Tier 2. Now that would not make much sense to me if the original engine was also a Tier 2 because the usual reason for a retrofit is to install an engine meeting a higher EPA emissions level, not one the same as the original engine.

    EDIT: Well that didn't take very long. Even the current model D11T tractor is only rated EPA Tier 2, probably because of the 850BHP power output. I confirmed this from the EPA standards. Engines rated above 750 BHP (which include the OP's D11N but interestingly enough not his 650BHP D10N machines) were required to meet EPA Tier 1 from 2000-onwards and EPA Tier 2 from 2006-onwards. Since 2006 nothing has changed regarding the emissions requirements they have to meet.
    https://dieselnet.com/standards/us/nonroad.php

    All electronic D11R tractors were rated EPA Tier 1, and the C32 retrofit is designed to take them to the same Tier 2 emissions level as the latest D11T. I have searched again and can find nothing regarding a C32 retrofit for a D11N.

    Also, with your 11N having been originally built in 1989 it pre-dates emissions regulations by about a decade and I guess could be regarded as being Tier "0" emissions, hence the upgrade retrofit to a Tier 1 electronic 3508 engine that was offered back in the day.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  9. Rihpper

    Rihpper Active Member

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    That’s interesting, maybe the c32 they offer is a tier 2. Or maybe tier 2 and 3 for the c32 is the same thing? I did find this online, it seems to say cat make two models of the d11t, one tier 2 and one teir 4 with DOC.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Easily explained. Only countries such as the USA where emissions regulations exist require "the whole hog" as regards exhuast emissions control.

    Export markets such as the ones I've worked in all my career are classed as LRC (Less-Regulated Countries) from the emissions standpoint and therefore get an engine which does not have any emissions control or exhaust aftertreatment system installed. Basically its emissions are a result of engine design and there is nothing tagged on the back end to clean up the exhaust. The snapshot you posted from the specalog alludes to that - RH side top of the page.

    It seems as though the info I linked above was not up to date. New nonroad engines with power ratings from 750-1200 BHP (560-900 Kw) were required to meet Tier 4 interim from 2011 and Tier 4 Final from 2015 onwards. https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi?Dockey=P100OA05.pdf
    I suspect there is no Tier 3 version of the C32. Why.? Well if you look at the link I posted the emissions standard for engines 750-1200 BHP jumped straight from Tier 2 to Tier 4 interim. With that power range being the logical one for the C32 engine to fall into (whatever machine installation it was built for) it would seem logical that it also went the same way in regards to emission ratings.

    An interesting aside. I looked at the Specalog for the 777G haul truck which is also powered by a C32. The Tier 2 (export) version has a nominal rated payload 1.6 tons more that the equivalent Tier 4 version of the truck. That'll be the exhaust aftertreatment system then......... I didn't look at respective fuel consumption figures for the two engines, it would be too depressing.
    EDIT: The previous 777F model with C32 only had one engine option - Tier 2. Strangely enough there is a Tier 4 final engine repower retrofit kit available for it.

    upload_2021-5-5_19-55-36.png
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  11. JL Sargent

    JL Sargent Senior Member

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    Can't wait to find out what a full compliment of new synthetic oil does for that governor!
     
  12. Rihpper

    Rihpper Active Member

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    That’s one heavy DOC!!

    I got the parts installed and new oil in. I’m warming the machine up right now.
     
  13. Rihpper

    Rihpper Active Member

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    Well, I added fresh oil warmed it up then drained oil and refilled. Here are my new numbers.

    175f engine.
    Where before I had 17psi at full load i now have 18.

    Before I had 9psi accelerating from idle with brakes locked I now have 16.5. (And it takes 15 seconds to reach 8 psi instead of 36 before)

    Before I had 16 psi slowly applying brakes until machine stops. I now have 16.5.

    Which is all wonderful, except once engine reaches 190f, the max boost is still there but the acceleration test is back down to 8 psi.... so I think it is definitely better but it still might need additional adjustments. We will have to wait till we get it on another job and see real life ripping performance. A big thank you to all the help and info!
     
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  14. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Linkages, racks, & injector settings next step then.........
    I take it that it still doesn't smoke heavily under acceleration.?
     
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  15. Rihpper

    Rihpper Active Member

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    Correct, not noticeably more smoke.
     
  16. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Still short of fuel by the sounds of it IMHO. Under sharp acceleration from idle it ought to give a distinct puff of black smoke like somebody threw a shovel full of coal on the fire.
     
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  17. Rihpper

    Rihpper Active Member

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    I wonder if the AFR diaphragm I changed in the past was for the old style governor, and if the updated governor takes a different one... the kit part number I used was #4P-6869.
     
  18. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Sorry, no. 4P-6869 is the repair kit listed for the A/F ratio control on the 0R-8309 govenor currently installed on your engine.
     
  19. Rihpper

    Rihpper Active Member

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    I see, ok well thanks for checking.