• Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!

Commercial grading layout and execution

Excavatorbill

New Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
2
Location
houston, tx
I am wondering how you grader guys get your layout right as far as islands and curbs go along with the high and low points when grading out a commercial lot. We have a string of gas stations going in with lots of changing elevations. No gps/ mom and pop company and I have to pull teeth to get survey out to set points for me. Short of running string from finish grade elevation to a high point or low point, I could be off a few feet from where that is and everything be off. Any help or ideas of how others get it done would be appreciated.
 

hwrdbd

Member
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
21
Location
CT
You'll need a couple known points on your print at the least. If you don't have any good existing points to measure from you'll have to get survey to give you a few stakes to work from. Work from your known existing point, be it a building, or a drain, or whatever, and measure out to your curb, etc that you're trying to locate. You can measure from two points to double check. You can also use a triangulation method when measuring off two points.
Say you're trying to locate a certain new catch basin to be constructed. You can scale a measurement off perhaps the existing building, and a measurement off a light pole or any other fixed point that exists on the print. You want the two known points and the one you're trying to find to be in a triangle, ideally with the two knowns not being very close to each other. Make an arc at the appropriate distance from each known point, and their intersection will be the point you're looking for.
Islands can often be done easily because they're generally parallel to a road, sidewalk, or each other. Sometimes pulling a rope is exactly how to locate certain things.
Regarding elevations, you're going to have your absolutes that cannot be changed. This would include the road that your entry ties into, the building height, I'm assuming the pump/slab around the pump island would have a non-negotiable given height (I've never done a gas station). You will be looking at your catch basins or runoff locations and comparing them to the area that you need to drain. Now do you have an actual grading plan from a competent engineer that shows you elevations throughout the work area, including high points? Or do work with engineers like I always end up with.. they draw a circle and say "grade area to drain." When I show up to grade something I'll look over all these things. Determine if the plan is actually helpful, look at all my low points, high points, fixed points, see if anything needs to be changed. You should go per plan if at all possible, but you also need to verify in-field if that plan actually will work. Few years back I had a plan telling me to place a catch basin 2' above existing grade in an area that was not to be raised. Confirmed with surveyor (who happened to be on site for another part of project) that my math was correct, made the decision to place the basin at an elevation that would actually work.
There are going to be very critical portions of your grading, to me these are high points, flow lines, and any areas of unavoidably slow pitch. I'm not sure how big these gas stations are you're doing, but most in my area don't contain a huge area of grading for asphalt. As such, I will keep my grade stakes to a minimum. I would stake out my island locations, using the locating stakes for elevation as well. I would probably also stake the outer perimeter of my paving, for location and elevation as well. If you have any transition points in your grade you'll want to stake them as well. This being any high points or swales/flow lines.
Some of this comes down to having an eye for grade, having experience, and having a little creativity. You have to recognize where these high points and swales need to be constructed. You'll have to generate an elevation for them. Stake those important points first.
I'm sure I'm rambling here, as it try to type this out while also entertaining my daughter lol. I hope this is somewhat readable and helpful. Please ask any questions and I can try to explain better or elaborate. Could you maybe supply a print or portion of one, and I could give you my thoughts on how I would lay out or set my grading points? I feel like this is certainly something easier shown, if we had an example I might be able to explain better.
 

cuttin edge

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,733
Location
NB Canada
Occupation
Finish grader operator
Are there already existing structures like storm drains, ditches, the street, curbs. Are the tanks underground already, are the islands already poured? Ideally, you want at least 2% drop in anything that is going to be paved. Any less and you risk the pavers putting in little water holes. If it's a virgin site, don't be scared to build it up to get grade. I see so many buildings built in a low area, and then some arsehole expects you to run water. If all the concrete is there, islands, curbs sidewalks, the front door, a catch basin that can't be adjusted, those are pretty much your points.
 

NepeanGC

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
203
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Occupation
#dirtherder
Renting a gps is probably the easiest. Our local Trimble dealer rents them. We own one. So much easier and faster to do our own layout.
 

skyking1

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
7,642
Location
washington
OP, do you have prints? At a minimum I'd get staking for TBC and radius points for TBC on the islands.
 

Excavatorbill

New Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
2
Location
houston, tx
This is a section of the grade plan. The road is going to be widened next week and survey couldn't get an accurate property line due to not finding all their survey points. Anyway, I have placed a highpoint stake under where the canopy for fuel pumps have to go. Then figured where center of the drive between pump station boundary and where the end of parking spots are at which is where the flowlines are. inlets are already staked by survey. Basically I'm on the right track with how you guys are saying to do it. It's just taking me a while to get exact points with tape and having to run every important change in elevation. Which is a lot to me since I'm not use to it. Usually I have survey do it in stages after utilities are in already.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20210417-092248.jpg
    Screenshot_20210417-092248.jpg
    920.6 KB · Views: 27

skyking1

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
7,642
Location
washington
What I would do in your shoes, is figure out places where I could put offset stakes and hubs. Use the information you have to establish those critical places that didn't get staked by survey, then offset those locations so that you don't have to keep going back and reinventing the wheel every time you wipe stuff out with different operations and utilities. Are you familiar with the language of staking?
 

cuttin edge

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,733
Location
NB Canada
Occupation
Finish grader operator
If you are not doing all site work, I wouldn't do a thing until the concrete for the building is poured. We did a gas station. Did a rough grade of the pad for the building. Installed all the drainage structures, there were no curbs, just the concrete islands and a raised sidewalk in front of the building, and threw the gravel in rough. When I went back to do around the building, and fine grade for pave, the concrete guys had poured the slab for the building 6 inches low. Only 1 of the 4 catch basins could be adjusted. Couldn't pave to the top of the sidewalk because of the reductions at the doors, and the owner wouldn't tear out those sections and get rid of the reductions. Made a real nice waterhole in front of the store.
 

hwrdbd

Member
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
21
Location
CT
Are there already existing structures like storm drains, ditches, the street, curbs. Are the tanks underground already, are the islands already poured? Ideally, you want at least 2% drop in anything that is going to be paved. Any less and you risk the pavers putting in little water holes. If it's a virgin site, don't be scared to build it up to get grade. I see so many buildings built in a low area, and then some arsehole expects you to run water. If all the concrete is there, islands, curbs sidewalks, the front door, a catch basin that can't be adjusted, those are pretty much your points.
Holy jeez I would love to come grade for you if you can get me 2% everywhere! I end up a lot closer to .5% on entirely too many jobs... whether engineered or just meeting existing structures that can't be changed. Two seasons ago we got the "joy" of grading/paving a large job of entirely new construction. It was a fire training facility where they have the towers and practice techniques, so it should regularly see a large amount of water. All concrete work was done by the time we arrived. Print had the slabs around these towers at such an elevation that the asphalt was only going to have about .4% pitch running away in spots. Slabs were poured an inch or so off, dropping me down to ~.2%. Told the sitework contractor that there was no way I would guarantee no puddles on that number. It just blew my mind they had all the room in the world on this site, it was all brand new, could have done anything and the engineer did that....

This is a section of the grade plan. The road is going to be widened next week and survey couldn't get an accurate property line due to not finding all their survey points. Anyway, I have placed a highpoint stake under where the canopy for fuel pumps have to go. Then figured where center of the drive between pump station boundary and where the end of parking spots are at which is where the flowlines are. inlets are already staked by survey. Basically I'm on the right track with how you guys are saying to do it. It's just taking me a while to get exact points with tape and having to run every important change in elevation. Which is a lot to me since I'm not use to it. Usually I have survey do it in stages after utilities are in already.
Yes that is a great place to start. How much of the rest of the sitework is done? Footings for the building, sidewalks, concrete around the pumps? Sounds like you're a ways off from finish grading. That plan you have is one of the better ones I've seen for grading. You have a lot of numbers to go off. When you say inlets are staked, are you meaning that the center of each basin is staked out? Something like that would be very helpful because Those points you can use to locate most other areas. Usually on a job like this the foundation would be marked by surveyors, which gives you a nice square set of lines to go off. You can measure square off the side of the building layout to get the line that your curb runs along. I don't see any radius points for your curbing, but that may be on a different sheet?
You're given all the important elevations you need, from my quick glance at the print. If the locations of basins are staked you can use them to locate just about any one of your elevation points. Just scale a measurement from two different basins to the point you're trying to locate, then measure that out in the field.
When I grade something like this I'll always work sections. I would stake that point you mentioned under the canopy, then go to the right (looking at the picture of print as you showed it) and stake that breaking point in the flow line. You can go down toward the basin at the bottom, placing a stake at the next given elevation in that flow line/swale. That's only about 40' and maybe another 12 to the basin? I personally wouldn't put any extra stakes in on that flow line and might even skip the one in the middle. When I start to grade that I'll build the flow line first. Have my laser guy chase me up and down making sure that we're achieving a good slope.
 

cuttin edge

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,733
Location
NB Canada
Occupation
Finish grader operator
Holy jeez I would love to come grade for you if you can get me 2% everywhere! I end up a lot closer to .5% on entirely too many jobs... whether engineered or just meeting existing structures that can't be changed. Two seasons ago we got the "joy" of grading/paving a large job of entirely new construction. It was a fire training facility where they have the towers and practice techniques, so it should regularly see a large amount of water. All concrete work was done by the time we arrived. Print had the slabs around these towers at such an elevation that the asphalt was only going to have about .4% pitch running away in spots. Slabs were poured an inch or so off, dropping me down to ~.2%. Told the sitework contractor that there was no way I would guarantee no puddles on that number. It just blew my mind they had all the room in the world on this site, it was all brand new, could have done anything and the engineer did that....


Yes that is a great place to start. How much of the rest of the sitework is done? Footings for the building, sidewalks, concrete around the pumps? Sounds like you're a ways off from finish grading. That plan you have is one of the better ones I've seen for grading. You have a lot of numbers to go off. When you say inlets are staked, are you meaning that the center of each basin is staked out? Something like that would be very helpful because Those points you can use to locate most other areas. Usually on a job like this the foundation would be marked by surveyors, which gives you a nice square set of lines to go off. You can measure square off the side of the building layout to get the line that your curb runs along. I don't see any radius points for your curbing, but that may be on a different sheet?
You're given all the important elevations you need, from my quick glance at the print. If the locations of basins are staked you can use them to locate just about any one of your elevation points. Just scale a measurement from two different basins to the point you're trying to locate, then measure that out in the field.
When I grade something like this I'll always work sections. I would stake that point you mentioned under the canopy, then go to the right (looking at the picture of print as you showed it) and stake that breaking point in the flow line. You can go down toward the basin at the bottom, placing a stake at the next given elevation in that flow line/swale. That's only about 40' and maybe another 12 to the basin? I personally wouldn't put any extra stakes in on that flow line and might even skip the one in the middle. When I start to grade that I'll build the flow line first. Have my laser guy chase me up and down making sure that we're achieving a good slope.
If your pavers can, no sorry, if your asphalt roller man can do half a percent in a parking lot with no little puddles, I'd love to have him. At half a percent, grader work has nothing to do with it. As long ad you're deep enough, it's up to the pavers, more over the roller man. Which is why I asked the question if the OP was doing all the site work. If you can raise or lower things to run water go for it. In my experience, you can never have your building too high, and if you can drop a fixture a bit to help run water, why run the risk of a poor paving job, and give them every chance you can.
 

AzIron

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
1,547
Location
Az
Engineers dont understand numbers off paper as general observation of mine they dont allow for a margine of error in the work not the least of witch is a design error let alone elevations that are just close enough but not exact to plans
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
Engineers dont understand numbers off paper as general observation of mine they dont allow for a margine of error in the work not the least of witch is a design error let alone elevations that are just close enough but not exact to plans

Thats a really nice way of putting it.

I go for 99% of engineers don’t know their head from their a$$. The amount of jobs screwed up due to incompetent engineers is far greater then any bad trades IMO. I swear sometimes they try and make things difficult on purpose and try new things for the hell of it.
 

skyking1

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
7,642
Location
washington
If your pavers can, no sorry, if your asphalt roller man can do half a percent in a parking lot with no little puddles, I'd love to have him. At half a percent, grader work has nothing to do with it. As long ad you're deep enough, it's up to the pavers, more over the roller man. Which is why I asked the question if the OP was doing all the site work. If you can raise or lower things to run water go for it. In my experience, you can never have your building too high, and if you can drop a fixture a bit to help run water, why run the risk of a poor paving job, and give them every chance you can.
amen on the 1/2 percent. I was explaining that to a plumber of all people, that 2% doesn't puddle in paving or concrete and anything shallower and you are asking for little bird baths.
 

cuttin edge

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,733
Location
NB Canada
Occupation
Finish grader operator
amen on the 1/2 percent. I was explaining that to a plumber of all people, that 2% doesn't puddle in paving or concrete and anything shallower and you are asking for little bird baths.
And I understand that sometimes you have no choice, and that 2% is an ideal situation, but if I'm the one in charge of the nerd stick when the grades go in, I'm giving guys after me all the grade I can. If I can bump a foundation up here, lower a pot there, and still make it pleasing to the eye, I'm doing it.
 

AzIron

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
1,547
Location
Az
Thats a really nice way of putting it.

I go for 99% of engineers don’t know their head from their a$$. The amount of jobs screwed up due to incompetent engineers is far greater then any bad trades IMO. I swear sometimes they try and make things difficult on purpose and try new things for the hell of it.
As much as I love to blame engineers and I really can gripe about engineering I have seen way to many mistakes made by trades for bad elevations especially lately so much of it comes down to trades own supervision not checking things and gc supervision not forcing rework because of job deadlines and the next guy has to take up the slack

The other real point is the engineer actually designing a job solution gets bad information and never looks for themself at a on going job that is getting a redesign detail so it's all fouled up in communication it creates the perfect storm for everyone to blame someone else I mean we all do it myself included

I have job now that the surveyor didn't even read elevation on his machine during a retake so the cut information was over a foot off cause they assumed the grade matched the rough grade on the plans every one is making errors and its compounding
 

CM1995

Administrator
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
13,373
Location
Alabama
Occupation
Running what I brung and taking what I win
I exclude layout on all our bids and put that responsibility on the GC. GC hires a surveyor to do all layout for all the site trades. Pretty simple stake building pad, layout storm structures and then 3' back of curb. The surveyor sets the site BM that everyone works off of. It's the way we've always done it although I am looking into GPS to do our own layout.

On one large job we are working on the GC has a full time field engineer to do any layout you need and it works great.

Engineers are like mechanics, operators, truck drivers and contractors - there's good ones and bad ones.
 

skyking1

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
7,642
Location
washington
And I understand that sometimes you have no choice, and that 2% is an ideal situation, but if I'm the one in charge of the nerd stick when the grades go in, I'm giving guys after me all the grade I can. If I can bump a foundation up here, lower a pot there, and still make it pleasing to the eye, I'm doing it.
It is a fine line to walk too. Get it too steep and it's a tripper for sure.
 

hwrdbd

Member
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
21
Location
CT
If your pavers can, no sorry, if your asphalt roller man can do half a percent in a parking lot with no little puddles, I'd love to have him. At half a percent, grader work has nothing to do with it. As long ad you're deep enough, it's up to the pavers, more over the roller man. Which is why I asked the question if the OP was doing all the site work. If you can raise or lower things to run water go for it. In my experience, you can never have your building too high, and if you can drop a fixture a bit to help run water, why run the risk of a poor paving job, and give them every chance you can.
Trust me, it isn't something I want to do and I'll avoid it at all costs. Sometimes you just can't. I haven't come across a situation where an entire lot was that flat, just sections. I'll always make sure to give my roller guys a heads up in those sections so they can try not to make any stop marks in critical spots.
I'm 100% with you on making adjustments in the field if I can. I'll drop a basin down, raise a curb or whatever I can to get better pitch. I gotta disagree when you say grader work has nothing to do with it. I'll do everything I can on the grader to get a nice consistent slope in a slow area. If you have a large lot at 2% design slope, then ultimately if you have areas that vary between 1.75 and 2.25 (just an approximate example, in no way meant to be a "hard" range) it isn't going to screw anything up. If you have an area that is running at .7% then you don't really have any wiggle room. You better be within like a .6-.8% range on that entire slow section. When I'm done grading I want that section dead on. Gotta make it so when you get on the box you just set your 1.5" or whatever and run it. Can't be trying to make up any grade with asphalt thickness. If you pave 1.5" in one spot and 2" in another, that is going to compress different amounts under the roller. That can end up putting a flat spot where you can't afford it. I'm sure you understand all this but I just wanted to type it all out for anyone reading who many not be familiar.
 

cuttin edge

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,733
Location
NB Canada
Occupation
Finish grader operator
Yeah, but they would never pave through a swale, the screed would just fill it in. Better to run your strip with the bottom on either side, then they can be sure of their thickness. Depending on your mix, it shouldn't compress a lot over slightly varying thicknesses as long as your screed is working right. I would only worry about that if it is an area that can't be done with the spreader. We used to have a lot of trouble with the roller causing flat spots when we used to use agg made from round rock. After we switched to quarry with 100% broken rock, that became less of an issue. When I first started grading, they wanted me to get experience around the asphalt spreader to get a better understanding that just because I can grade it, doesn't mean they can pave it, at least not wit the spreader. The old asphalt boss said closer is better because we use less asphalt, but I would rather see you a bit low then high, as the spreader can always fill a hole, but it can't cut down a high spot. But I do know what you are saying.
 
Top