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Clean Hydraulic OIl

Discussion in 'Excavators' started by John C., Jul 12, 2019.

  1. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    Welder Dave, you keep jumping in on the thread mouthing opinion from other people as fact. Apparently you have a skid steer and have acknowledged that you are not a mechanic so have little to no experience. I'm trying to walk through a case history here for the benefit of all and you apparently want to make yourself look smart by walking over the intended purpose of the thread. I don't need or want a parrot for a megaphone.

    I've learned to deal with fact throughout my career and what really makes me angry is when people start spouting here say and inanities that they have heard from someone else or read about in some fluff piece of advertising. The links you have provided are for the most part advertising by companies for their products or services. The only one from a manufacturer was the Dan Foss article that states start up oil cleanliness should be ISO 25/22/17 and top up should be 23/21/15. The Cross article states "most new oil from barrels is 23/21/18" but they do not provide a source for that statement. They go on to say that a hydraulic system generates more dirt over a year and gives some fantastical amount of weight that is added to the oil in the form of dirt. Again, no source for that information and they are assuming the system is making dirt and the installed filtering systems are ineffective at best and problematic at worst. They want to sell something and they are trying to make everyone else look bad to make themselves look good!

    I want to make it clear that I am not against filtering oil and making sure that everything is kept as clean as possible. Following factory specified maintenance procedures is how you make a machine last to its fullest potential. What I do react to is people stating absolutes that are not true. Warranties do not state that you have to do something or else. There is also an element of fact in any failure that has to be established in order to accept or deny a warranty claim. You can tell me a pump failed because of dirty oil that I put in the system. I'll counter that you will need to prove your case or I'll see you in court. Even in the case of the pump that is the subject of this thread. Can anyone actually say that the failure is caused by dirt in the oil? The unit has more than 7,000 hours on it. Can anyone predict how much longer it might have lasted if it had a loop system installed? What would be considered normal working life of any pump of this type in this particular application? In my experience I've seen plenty of excavator hydraulic pumps fail at 6,000 to 9,000 hours of operation. Would just following the manufacture's recommended maintenance practices have made the pump last longer? How do we know that those practices weren't followed and how would we prove otherwise.
     
  2. JD955SC

    JD955SC Senior Member

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    I believe it is. We get five star consistently every year and it’s a lot of work. The bulk tanks have filtration, they have to be particle counted and samples taken to prove the cleanliness, and we have a filter cart for cleaning oil in the machine.

    Cat takes the clean oil issue rather seriously.
     
  3. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    I thought as much. I remember the 5-Star Certification inspections, there was a lot of work involved in them back in the day. I can't imagine it's any different now.
     
  4. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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    For someone claiming 40 years experience I would have expected much better. I never resorted to name calling but tried to provide as much back up as I could. I didn't run away with my tail between my legs. Others actually joined this thread to provide relevant information. I gave you some information on filter carts as well. I thought knowing about fluid cleanliness and what can or should be done is in the best interests of everyone. I'm not a mechanic but apparently Cat agrees with me. I'm OK with that! Just disregard below, it's a bunch of drivel.

    https://www.hansa-flex.com/fileadmi..._A_concise_guide_to_fluid_management_2017.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  5. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    That's OK, you have met my expectations completely. Go stand on someone else's shoulders to try and make yourself look good.
     
  6. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    I agree ….. John C. was not honest in his experience in the industry .40 years was an understatement !


    It's closer to 60 years experience if you count time spent growing up running equipment and serving in the Navy , wrenching on and appraising equipment later in life . :cool:

    Long story short Welder Dave …..

    Members like John C. have forgotten more about equipment then the " millennials "
    will ever get figured out .

    LMAO ! :D:p
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
  7. CM1995

    CM1995 Super Moderator

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    Well I can say one thing with certainty - you do not want me working on your hydraulic system unless you want it totally fubar'd.:D

    Now if you want an underground detention system installed or a building torn down - I'm your guy.:cool:
     
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  8. mitch504

    mitch504 Senior Member

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    I honestly wasn't trying to enter the argument on either side with my comment about the Tigercats. I thought it might be interesting, but I think it has more to do with the habits of some of the one-crew owner-operator loggers. They take used buckets and refill them from the bulk tanks at the oil companies around here, and they ride in the back of the pickup with a rag in the spout until they are needed. I have watched them pick them up without even wiping the half inch of dirt off the top and dump them in through the funnel with the dirt falling in with the oil. Most of these guys are running 5yr old or less machinery that is worn slam out.
     
  9. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    You brought up a good point that is relevant to the thread. One of the principles at Tigercat I think was a man by the name of Crawford that built the Timbco feller buncher. That evolved I believe with a sale to Timberjack and later on I've heard he became involved somehow with Tigercat. At any rate every machine that he was involved with had that fill system installed. As I recall though the oil was pumped through the return filter of the hydraulic system.

    The other oddball thing they had was they wanted to pressurize the hydraulic tank but didn't have a compressor installed and apparently didn't trust gravity and expansion to keep the head pressure they felt they needed. They took boost pressure from the manifold side of the engine turbo charger and plumbed it into the hydraulic tank. Also the tanks on a those bunchers were about ten feet off the ground to the bottom of the tank. The push and pull pumps were about the only way to get oil in the tank.
     
  10. JD955SC

    JD955SC Senior Member

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    I’m not sure who is harder on equipment, loggers or landfills
     
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  11. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    At least landfills are usually located somewhere near civilization and have a good road and such, when you are out in the woods and don't have that $2 part and whatever job needs to be completed, that is when stuff gets done in a funny way.
     
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  12. 63 caveman

    63 caveman Well-Known Member

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    I don't claim to be a mechanic but other people do!
    I come here to gain information from others with more experience and hope to help others when I have knowledge on an issue.

    I just want to take the opportunity now to thank the guys with experience for taking the time to post here and help a bum like me out!

    THANKS GUYS!
     
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  13. kshansen

    kshansen Senior Member

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    True but then I'd usually rather have to crawl under a machine out in the woods than one parked in a landfill!:eek:
     
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  14. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    Usually on a woods machine you only have to worry about what kind of critter might be living in the pans. With landfill machines now days the worry is on the chemicals and application devices that make the machine seem more like a rattlesnake waiting to shorten your life.
     
  15. GregsHD

    GregsHD Senior Member

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    Landfill equipment is gross, I've spent my fair share avoiding getting poked by needles and the dreaded hanging maxi pad right in your face, never again! Not worth it!

    Definitely need to pack more macgiver supplies when working deep in the woods, keep it working for the day, get the proper parts tomorrow. You just can't have everything in the truck!
     
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  16. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    More like get it working for the day, get the proper parts never, or when it breaks again. After all why fix it when it is working (running on haywire) and in winter there is no money coming in to fix it. And so it goes....
     
  17. GregsHD

    GregsHD Senior Member

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    You must deal with some pretty low budget operations...

    Around here winter is when most of the wood gets hauled and the money comes in. Spring breakup is when the machines get all the attention.
     
  18. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Talking about oil & failures …

    Buddy got me on to this product couple years ago . https://lucasoil.com/products/engine-builder-lubricants/engine-break-in-oil-additive-tb-zinc-plus

    Sales point is the lack of zinc in today's oil's wiping out a " flat tappet " camshaft on older engines .

    If it works on a flat tappet cam why would it not help a hydro system where parts are running metal to metal on a swash plate ?

    Could it be today's oil is to clean leaving out yesterday's zinc ?
     
  19. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    I think Nige brought up the point that Hitachi doesn't like zinc in their hydraulic systems.
     
  20. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    No zinc for the Hitachi's ?

    Got that .:)

    They can always move out if they don't like it .

    LMAO ! :D:p
     
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