Cats are soooo expensive compared to kubota. What’s the reason?

[John C.]

So what is your point?

 

[zeroo]

So what is your point?

My point? Or question? Since I’ve never ran a cat I guess I was more curious of performance differences. Not a real concise reason for cost difference. Really only way is to get on one. That’s easier said than done.

 

[Oxbow]

My point? Or question? Since I’ve never ran a cat I guess I was more curious of performance differences. Not a real concise reason for cost difference. Really only way is to get on one. That’s easier said than done.

I bet you could have a demo on your job with one phone call. Availability of new machines may be an issue still thoough.

 

[92U 3406]

Just from personal experience I don't really see much difference in terms of quality between most brands these days. Response time for a service call to Cat isn't much different than any other dealer from what I've seen either.

From my own perspective (I'm just a mechanic, not a business owner) I tend to keep everything I buy until its completely used up, so purchase price means far more to me than resale because its going to be worth nothing when I replace it anyways.

 

[John C.]

There is still a salvage value but it will likely be less than the expenses to retrieve it.

 

[92U 3406]

I mean I look after everything I have but at some point its just too far gone to be worth keeping.

 

[Truck Shop]

Series 60 was first with tier 2, Series 60 was first with EGR, Cummins EGR suffered and they made
a deal with Detroit to use their design later on. Cat on the other hand abandoned on road because
of the fines being levied by EPA for every non compliant engine they produced. factoid.

 

[John C.]

Technically all I saw that didn't comply was the Navistar abomination. I don't recall Cat ever taking credit for that one even in the Cat branded trucks. Cat block and crank is all I remember having a Cat cast emblem. We did get the speeches from on high about vertical integration and that Cat would no longer participate directly in that market. Cat was the name on the front of the truck but everything was Navistar. Never heard of any fines by the EPA that Cat was a part of. Certainly not in the equipment industry.

Never saw a Detroit in any yellow iron except huge mining trucks and those got re-powered to Cummins.

 

[92U 3406]

How come Cat never came back to the truck engine market now that off road emission regulations are pretty much on par with on road (the failed partnership with Navistar not withstanding)?

 

[John C.]

Vertical integration.

They don't want to only make one piece of a machine. They want to make the entire machine.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I remember a 3208 truck motor from the late 80s that had a sticker that basically said engine would have been non compliant but fines had been paid. Way back before we knew how crazy this would all get.

 

[John C.]

As I recall, emissions regulations for diesels started in 1996.

 

[Truck Shop]

Vertical integration.

They don't want to only make one piece of a machine. They want to make the entire machine.

Reason for Freightliner/Daimler powered trucks, the whole drivetrain belongs to them along with
proprietary parts/info. For several years a Freightliner couldn't be bought with a Cummins, a few
years back Freightliner allowed them back into the system.

PacCar has there own engine, Scania/Volvo has theirs, Freightliner/Daimler has their own, Mack owned
by Volvo has their own. No room for Cat and Cat isn't going to bother with that small piece of pie.
Cummins is the main free standing engine supplier, and Dodge has been a big player in that.

Emission regulations started in 1996 but development by the manufactures was kicked down the road.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I have heard that diesel emissions regs started in [insert year here] but when I had to report our fleet to them I found emissions docs going way back. Here is a sample from 1979

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/defaul...dv/1979/caterpillar_hdd_a0130029_14d6_7d5.pdf
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/defaul...llar_hdd_a0130028_10d5-14d6-18d0-10d4_7d5.pdf

And from 1989 when they had developed the complicated EFN which still appears today

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/defaul...0d4-10d4-10d5-10d5-10d5-14d6-14d6_6d0-0d6.pdf

I don't know the meaning of this; nobody was checking until the early 2000s and not in earnest until after DPF junk showed up in the marketplace.

 

[John C.]

Lot of stuff from California in those days. I read those documents and what is not stated in them is the "or what." In other words there are no penalties prescribed. Nothing says at what level the regulations apply to either. Do they mean those stated engines from the factory, sold at the dealer level or any at the end user level.

Here is a good site that explains the basics of federal emissions standards.
https://www.genpowerusa.com/blog/what-to-know-epa-diesel-emission-tiers/

 

[Welder Dave]

Back to the comparison between Kubota and Cat, Kubota has a very well respected machine. A lot would depend on the dealer. 20K is a big difference on a sub 100K machine if comparing apples to apples. Just because a machine says Cat on the side doesn't make it a better or even a good machine. Seem to recall reading on here that Cat forestry machines for the most part weren't good compared to others and that's why Cat got out of the forestry business.

 

[Tyler d4c]

Personally earth equipment is yellow pick up you circle the problem big trucks are the cheapest heap we can find. Lawn equipment is orange.
Most importantly if you don't like the price buy a case
Can't
Afford
Something
Else.
I've ran both personally I like the cat better the kubota doesn't have suspension on the tracks and that over head door everyone loves is pointless imo because you should not be crawling out with the arms up and I keep my ac in working shape.

 

[KSSS]

Personally earth equipment is yellow pick up you circle the problem big trucks are the cheapest heap we can find. Lawn equipment is orange.
Most importantly if you don't like the price buy a case
Can't
Afford
Something
Else.
I've ran both personally I like the cat better the kubota doesn't have suspension on the tracks and that over head door everyone loves is pointless imo because you should not be crawling out with the arms up and I keep my ac in working shape.

Thats funny, I can afford to buy whatever want, I primarily buy CASE and after 28 years, it has worked out quite well.

 

[Welder Dave]

When did the topic change to CTL's? Even so Kubota came later than most and has built a pretty good following. They were/are the most popular compact tractors in N. America. The success of their tractors has a lot to do with their move into smaller construction equipment. Their engines are for the most part as good or better than anything else on the market and a big reason they come standard on many other high end brands. They were so popular in skid steers Case made the 1838 to have a Kubota model. Case had a good following in their own right too. Most brands make a pretty good product or they wouldn't stay in business.

 

[Mark13]

I’m curious. My u48-5 was like $71k, the equivalent 305 is like $90+.

What is the difference? I’ve never ran a cat so curious.

I noticed the same when I bought my Takeuchi TB260 and priced out every brand who would get back to me. Cat and JCB were iirc about 21-22k more for the same size machine (Cat 306, don't remember what the JCB model was). I talked with the Cat salesman, told him the rough price difference and asked if a better price was available to keep Cat in consideration. He told me that the price on the estimate was as good as he could do and if I wanted a 306 there was a 17 week wait at the time. I ended up buying the Tak which was on the lot 3/4 of mile down the road from the Cat dealer.
860hrs on it so far and it's been a good machine. I've run a 306 a little bit and it's a nice machine but I don't think I would have found the extra cost or the 4+ month wait time to be worth it.