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CAT getting nasty with workers in Canada

Discussion in 'General Industry Questions' started by cutting edge, Jan 4, 2012.

  1. motrack

    motrack Charter Member

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    In Muncie Indiana a new factory opened a few months ago building railroad locomotives this company is Cat owned.

    Todays Muncie newspaper told the story of Cats problems in Canada and more locomotive work will be coming into this area from a existing Canadian factory where workers refused to make wage cocessions.

    Sometimes you just gotta adjust you standard of living.
     
  2. Dozerboy

    Dozerboy Senior Member

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    It is still a partly union issue. If it wasn't for those contracts they had maybe there wouldn't even be a plant in Indiana. And everyone would still have a job just making $25hr.
     
  3. buckfever

    buckfever Senior Member

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    What you guys are saying about world markets makes sents to a point. But I think the reason companies go over seas is not for cheap wages but less regulations and a better tax code. I cann't think of one reason a co. would move to a third world nation for just cheap labor. Look at it like this. What would it cost a company like cat just to comply with our tax code. Not pay the tax just employ the people and services to be legal. And don't forget if it hasn't been made here you have to pay to bring it here. That cann't be cheap. On the point of corprate welfare, if you cann't survive if the free market you either change or fail. No do-overs. Make it easyer to operate a company in this country and we will have more work and job then we know what to do with.
     
  4. ILLICEMAN

    ILLICEMAN Well-Known Member

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    A very good point.Wages are also not any more important than what kind of production you get for your hourly package you pay your workers.
    Alot of factors to look at for sure.
     
  5. Davvinciman

    Davvinciman Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't bother me that Cat wants to go to China to make equipment there. It is their right. But when they want to close plants here to make equipment there, I hope the government sees the light and makes them keep Chinese Cat equipment in China. Parts and all. To compete, you want to give them government subsidies in the form of cheaper tax rates. I say they should have to pay more for putting workers here out of the economy.
    With your logic, the reason the cost of health insurance skyrocketed is because of the cost of an office visit to your doctor and that is not a fact, Jack.
     
  6. CM1995

    CM1995 Administrator

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    Just some food for thought, Cat is opening several new facilities in the US:

    North Carolina:
    http://www.centralillinoisnewscente...-Caterpillar-Plant-Opens-in-NC-133966998.html

    California:
    http://www.1560wbys.com/index.php?o...y-plant-to-open&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=60

    Texas:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3868218...build-manufacturing-plant-texas/#.Tw2en5jyGfR

    And probably the most interesting is that Cat is considering moving some production of mini-excavators and tracktype tractors from Japan to North America. Now North America could mean Mexico, Canada or the US but interesting none-the-less.
    http://www.daytondailynews.com/business/region-to-make-bid-for-new-caterpillar-plant-1283025.html

    Cat has also opened plants in China to make products for the Southeast Asia market, I don't know if they are planning on importing those machines to North America.

    I think Cat has found out what other companies have about manufacturing in China - there are a lot of problems with production, quality and most importantly intellectual property rights - China really has no patent protection. Couple those problems with high shipping costs and the money saved by lower wages doesn't make since when the numbers a finally added up. We have seen companies start to move their production back to North America and I predict this will only increase over the years.

    http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/08/another-company-moves-production-back.html
    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2012-01/11/content_14418729.htm
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht.../2016524160_inpersonfichter17.html?cmpid=2628

    Contrary to popular belief, Chinese wages are raising, no doubt to the pressures of a growing middle class. This cannot exist in a vacuum - a growing middle class that wants a nicer house, cars, etc and massive amounts of cheap labor - something has got to give. When you have such a large working population, Beijing will have a balancing act.:cool2

    The trend is called "Re-shoring" and it's a trend to watch.
     
  7. Davvinciman

    Davvinciman Well-Known Member

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    They just found this out? When I grew up, we were raised to believe that communists were the scourge or the earth. They made their people believe things about "free" societies that were total lies. I was also taught that hard work and a determined attitude paid off. Being a bully and back-stabbing were not positive personality traits. Helping the little guy was admirable and considered a very "Christian" endeavor.
    Now you have sharks out there eating other sharks and somehow this is supposed to save the other fish? The sharks will get around to them, no doubt. Most corporations are money whores that don't want competition from little "Mom and Pop" companies but grab every state or federal subsidy they can get their hands on and have no problems dealing with previous "scourges" just to make a buck. Not a sterling recommendation for being a defender of freedom as far as I am concerned.
    "Trickle down" was never my idea of economic prosperity and the only reason they are setting up in No. Carolina and California (the over-regulated state?) is because of the give backs and subsidies that they hate to see trickle down too far (meaning the little guy). If a person (corporations have people status now) will do anything for money, they are not to be trusted. And I think, if anything, they are preparing for the backlash that "might" be coming.
    The vote is the one thing that has kept this country great, not corporations or capitalism.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  8. joispoi

    joispoi Senior Member

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    I disagree. The vote simply changes who gets paid off by the lobbyists. USA capitalism is the machine that drives the world economy. Capitalism and chronyism are not one and the same. As long as their are lobbyists, there will be chronyism. If I expound any further it might look like I'm talking politics, so I'll leave it at that. ;)
     
  9. joispoi

    joispoi Senior Member

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    There's a book called "Poorly Made in China" written by an insider who used to work as a liason between Chinese manufacturing companies and foreign companies looking for lower cost production of their products. The companies would agree to make their product at an agreed upon price. Production would begin and gradually, they'd cut corners and substitute materials to bring the manufacturing costs down....not all at once, gradually. The process is called quality fade. Sooner or later, the parent company will notice that their product no longer looks like their product. They call the manufacturer and tell them that the product is not of adequate quality. They manufacturer in China replies saying that it costs too much to manufacture their product the way that they want it so they'll have to increase the price. The parent company has already closed their domestic manufacturing plant, sold or moved all equipment and fired all their workers....usually they pay up.
     
  10. Dozerboy

    Dozerboy Senior Member

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    So its Cats fault that the gov. you elected has decided you are incapable of feeding your kids. Its not just lunch they get breakfast and and evening snack too in places even in the summer when school is out.

    I'm also sure Cats parts and equipment would be a lot cheaper now if they hadn't cut wages 10 years ago.
     
  11. Davvinciman

    Davvinciman Well-Known Member

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    Whaaaaaat?

    How could you tell? Why would Cat ever lower its parts price because they lowered wages? It's more profit. The question is how much is enough, Mr. Gecko?
     
  12. AusDave

    AusDave Senior Member

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    So why don't all Americans vote?
    If you don't vote isn't it just accepting the way things are and that's a lot of people who forgo their democratic right.

    It's compulsory to vote in Australia and that's not a bad thing in my book.

    AusDave
     
  13. catken

    catken Well-Known Member

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    The sad part about some of our voters, they are recieving entitlements(40%) from the gov and they sure as h.ll don't want anything changed. One has to look who alot of them are and I'm not sure they should be allowed to vote. This is one of the problems here in the USA. One must not forget that Caterpillar is a large global Corp and one of the most successful in the world. They don't just do things for the sake of it. For example, GM and Chrysler, bail out and not paid back yet, Not Caterpillar and look at the reasons why! Great leadership and forsight!
     
  14. ohiofleet

    ohiofleet Well-Known Member

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    How could you tell? Why would Cat ever lower its parts price because they lowered wages? It's more profit. The question is how much is enough, Mr. Gecko?[/QUOTE]

    no such thing as enough
     
  15. Davvinciman

    Davvinciman Well-Known Member

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    "The Fed’s efforts to prop up the financial sector reached across a broad spectrum of the economy, benefiting stalwarts of American industry including General Electric and Caterpillar". Excerpt from Washington Post Dec. 2010. It's amazing what you can learn from the internet, if you try. And anyone I have ever met that received unemployment insurance payments (which we all pay into) was always looking for a way to get their job back. Maybe not a minimum wage job.
    Is that what you are saying? Someone who was working at a $60,000 yr job should take a minimum wage job instead of trying to find work at some other related field that might salvage whatever is left of what they worked all their life to build so they can say they have a job? While Wall St. and banks go right back to business as usual after taking government bailouts?
    Interesting.
    "The Fed launched emergency programs totaling $3.3 trillion in aid". Found that later in the article.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2012
  16. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    I've read over this thread somewhat and several things have come to mind and I'm sure I'll get shot for stating this but I'll do so anyhow, the first one is where does company profits equate into the company should pay better wages or anything else on someone els's behalf? I've missed something along the line but I don't feel or ever did if a prior employer made a buck I was anyhow entitled to any part of that dollar and can't seem to wrap myself around the idea that anyone is entitled to anything from anyone's profits, sounds to me like sour grapes and a lot of complaining on others part. If cat is somehow to blame for the gas price, or food price or transportation costs or even living costs you incur, but you are unwilling to move anywhere cheaper to live or find any other job, then I can't feel sorry for anyone, as for benefits being offered they are just that benefits and not entitlements, if the company can find someone else that will work for less and do the same job its still called a free market system and thats why, you have the freedom to chose your job and what you do with your life, at work and away from work and who you marry and how you live your life, its not cats or anyone's else's fault or responsibility to do anything on your behalf no matter what you think.

    Second if you've got it so bad and cats so terrible and disgusting and unfair and the list is almost endless of their faults, then start your own company and produce your own products, then your profits can and will be endless and you can employ everyone who needs a job and pay wages they feel is fair for you to pay and you can run your business anyhow they deem fit for you. If your thinking you can't do that, think again, its done everyday, I did just that and now run a considerable sized operation, I never did nor still do have any benefits paid on my behalf, I pay 100% of everything myself, if I want to make even more money I can figure out just how to do that and I'v never complained about someone who had it better than myself, I may have been envious but whatever they did to get to where they are is their business, if it were done legally and not by selling drugs or stealing something. The world is not a fair place to work or live, someone will always have it better or make more than you or have had a better break in life you didn't get, so get used to it, its not cats fault nor anyone else's either, if cat wants to pay 16 bucks an hour and your not going to work for that, then look elsewhere for a better job, if they were paying 40 bucks an hour and you took a job away from someone else would you be willing to give it up so the other guy could have it instead? If they had a 5 million dollar loss would you be willing to work for 10 bucks an hour to help them out? If you answered no aren't you somewhat selfish about yourself needing something more than they do? If you said no you'd not be willing to work for 10 per hour if they were losing money they why would them making profits have anything to do with what you feel you should get?

    Don't get me wrong I'm not a cat lover by any means, but they have survived without government bailouts unlike chrysler and gm and they do understand business and how to run one profitably and to produce products people want to buy and as long as those people can and will buy them and pay the price for them and the parts, they they'll probably be around for some time to come, if that takes closing plants and relocating them elsewhere to hire those willing to work for what they want to pay, then I don't feel they've done anything wrong, if your a casualty of that change, then maybe take your lumps and move on, and learn from the experience and remember maybe the next company won't survive paying 35 per hour plus benefits either and instead of striving for higher wages and negotiating with the company all the time, there might be someone out there thats happy to work for less and not a constant headache to the company and eventually not worth arguing with anymore, but thats just my opinion, if I'm wrong what did the company tell you or try to tell you for the lowering wages and less benefits being offered and maybe relocating the plant somewhere else?
     
  17. Dozerboy

    Dozerboy Senior Member

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    There was a post that was deleted

    I will never tell someone when they make enough. Just like I don't want anyone to tell me when I have made enough.

    Mr. Gecko?
     
  18. Dozerboy

    Dozerboy Senior Member

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    Well they sure and hell shouldn't live off all of us tax payers for 2 years while they "look". As for Wall St 2 wrongs don't make a right, right.
     
  19. Buckethead

    Buckethead Senior Member

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    What places? I never heard of that.
     
  20. AustinM

    AustinM Well-Known Member

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    Interesting thread and I whole heartedly agree with Randy88's assessment. Excellent post.