CAT getting nasty with workers in Canada

[CM1995]

First of all let's not let this thread get into a "Union vs Non-Union" thread, that just leads to bickering and argument and ultimately a closed thread. :cool2

This topic involves a business decision, whether right or wrong, only time will tell. It has been a very rough 4 years during the "Great Recession" for businesses and the general worker alike. Tough decisions were made, not because anyone wanted to make them, but the reality is we were forced to make them.

We all have to make tough decisions during our short life here on Earth. When times are good, everything moves smoothly and when times are bad you have to do what you have to do to survive.

It's the same whether you are a corporation or managing your personal household. When times get tough and cash flow slows down, you have to find ways to cut your spending to survive. It's a vicious cycle that compounds the misery until the economy turns around, but it's just that - a cycle. You live through it and survive to fight another day, with the wisdom of your hard earned eductation.

 

[willie59]

And we have to consider this; when decisions are made at this high of a corporate level, it's done with input from bean counters, spreadsheets, data that shows trends, bottom line, and projected sales/expenditures, then corporate executives mull over this info, compared to other production facilities, and they decide to shuffle things around based on info provided them. This is done from an office far disconnected from the lunch boxes that walk in/out of a plant on a daily basis. Not saying this is right/wrong, fair/unfair, or any other dynamic, but it is the norm for the corporate world. As has been stated, the objective of any business is to stay in business, whatever it takes. When one signs on to work for a corporate business, anything is subject to happen at any time.

 

[cutting edge]

First of all let's not let this thread get into a "Union vs Non-Union" thread, that just leads to bickering and argument and ultimately a closed thread. :cool2

This topic involves a business decision, whether right or wrong, only time will tell. It has been a very rough 4 years during the "Great Recession" for businesses and the general worker alike. Tough decisions were made, not because anyone wanted to make them, but the reality is we were forced to make them.

We all have to make tough decisions during our short life here on Earth. When times are good, everything moves smoothly and when times are bad you have to do what you have to do to survive.

It's the same whether you are a corporation or managing your personal household. When times get tough and cash flow slows down, you have to find ways to cut your spending to survive. It's a vicious cycle that compounds the misery until the economy turns around, but it's just that - a cycle. You live through it and survive to fight another day, with the wisdom of your hard earned eductation.

This is not a union issue whatsoever (although some people have shown their leanings here quite obviously) its about how a company treats its employees,the very people that make it successful.

There a re a few points about this plant that must be made clear:

- there were/are no hard times at Electromotive..the plant was bustling with orders for years to come.

-there was no bargaining in good faith on the employers part (so trying not to make this a union thing....) the employer offered a 55% cut in pay and benefits...take it or leave it and we will lock the doors,which they did.

-Word on the street is that this action is intended to close the plant and move the operations to the States elsewhere, where they will pay even less to their employees....If the plant closes,the Ontario and Canadian governments are gonna be pretty pissed about the corporate tax relief this very company has been afforded.

 

[cutting edge]

Personally I'm surprised at your reaction TBH. Pretty much everyone else who has posted here is being pragmatic and taking the broad view. Comments regarding your other points would be: -

1. They (the employees) have a choice, more than one actually. The first step would be to tell their union leaders (who I can guarantee will not be sharing the employees' pain) to FRO.
2. The Occupy movement is total & utter horse**** IMO and will at the end of the day achieve nothing.
3. Name one ........ I mean one that's REALLY successful.
4. No I wouldn't stand for it, but then again I wouldn't have been on a unionised job in the first place. So yes, I would up sticks & move.

1-choices are pretty slim in a region that has already recently lost a Ford plant, Sterling truck plant, Deere Ag plant and a Navistar plant....way to pick the tough bits out of my post though (BTW....the emplyer has no regard for the union at this point,so the union angle is moot at this point...leave it out of this)

2-The one you saw on Faux news wasn't the real deal....learn to not trust the media.

3- EA sports....look into this company,you will be shocked. Another is the one that I work for,which is also (gasp) unionized!!!

4- yeah,I get it....what do you do about your house though,sell it in a depressed market, take it with you brick by brick or just abandon it like many folks seemingly had to do in the States?

 

[qball]

well, i do believe the cat loco plant is moving to indiana. indiana is going through a huge right to work battle right now. coincidence? i think not.

 

[cutting edge]

well, i do believe the cat loco plant is moving to indiana. indiana is going through a huge right to work battle right now. coincidence? i think not.

Same story I heard.....classy.

 

[John C.]

I'm sure people here feel some sympathy for the workers up in Canada that same as they would those here. Most on this forum seem to be independents working for themselves which probably explains a lot about our comments. Most of us are also a little older and have experienced these same ups and downs working for people and ourselves. Most of us have learned that working for someone else is putting your future in someone else's hands and unfortunately you have to live with the decisions of your employer or do something else. You are giving up self determination for a steady pay check and health insurance.

By the way Caterpillar isn't the only company in the news for shutting down factories. Check out Boeing and the Wichita, Kansas plant closing to get a feel of what corporate America thinks of their commitments and employees.

I have been told that something like 75% of americans were independent and didn't work for anyone else up until the 1940s. Now days 80% of us work for someone else. Perhaps the only way to beat the corporations is stop doing business with them and start building your own businesses.

 

[ILLICEMAN]

UNIONS HELLO HELLO
No one like to take a wage decrease.The problem is that we are on a world economy.That just the way it is.While wages mean alot it is the total cost of production that is a great factor.Keeping this at the right cost is a big factor in making or breaking a co.
Cat is know fool.They know they can,t expect to pay nothing for a work force but they also know when wages and work rules
make their cost to high its time to do something before it to late.
Wake up unions we are on a world market.

 

[cutting edge]

And in a global market,you get what you pay for...otherwise you'd all be running those Chinese built machines.

 

[Davvinciman]

Really?

Personally I'm surprised at your reaction TBH. Pretty much everyone else who has posted here is being pragmatic and taking the broad view. Comments regarding your other points would be: -

1. They (the employees) have a choice, more than one actually. The first step would be to tell their union leaders (who I can guarantee will not be sharing the employees' pain) to FRO.
2. The Occupy movement is total & utter horse**** IMO and will at the end of the day achieve nothing.
3. Name one ........ I mean one that's REALLY successful.
4. No I wouldn't stand for it, but then again I wouldn't have been on a unionised job in the first place. So yes, I would up sticks & move.

And this is really what it comes down to. Corporations claim they are only responsible to their shareholders. Caterpillar asks for and gets a bailout by the government (and gets it) while taking more of their manufacturing to China (and other places now). The “sheep were meant to be sheered” philosophy will always go to far because eventually some idiot will think “We can get all the eggs at once if we just kill the goose and take them”.
To refer back to an earlier post, personally, I'm surprised you're surprised and I would say you should get ready for more surprises.
1.) The employees have a choice? The choice to find a job somewhere else doing the same thing for an employer that will get decimated by the guy he just left or stay and work for half the price? Japanese corporations wanted to take over the semi-conductor market in the 80's so they got government sponsorship (money) to “dump” (sell below cost) chips for years. There was a law against it (REGULATION) and they got fined but not before they took out bankrupted (“made them move”) many of the chip manufacturers that were in the business here. Then, of course, the price went back up. I'll take the regulation (even over-regulation) compared to the “snake in the grass” tactics of big corporations backed by government money). Yah, they paid a fine later. Much later.
2.) It's called civil disobedience and the right to protest and what they are protesting about is the “bought and paid for” laws that don't protect ALL the people. Privatize the profits and publicize the losses. Get the money out of politics and you will see changes not geared towards the big money.
3.) REALLY successful? Like REALLY big profits? Your right. But for some reason they say that small business is the backbone of employment. The “Mom and Pop” outfits that DON'T have CPA's or hire MBA's to develop a business plan that will decimate other business' not as well capitalized. Is that the freedom you are talking about? Because if it is, get ready for that big corporation called China to start stepping on your toes. Of course, by that time big money will have their stake in them (GE, Caterpillar) or start screaming for tariffs against an unfair playing field. Are tariffs regulation? But they won't use that word. Weren't the Commies our foes?
4.) I'm calling BS on this one. It's great to say it but it's another thing to do it. And for what? So some other guy can make another 10% profit and make the shareholders, minus the corporate perks and “fines for dumping”, that much more? People are starting to see the light about “how much is enough”. To a corporation, there is no limit and the only limits they know are called regulations.
Henry Ford said “There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible.” You can really create a great society doing that. He also said “The highest use of capital is not to make more money, but to make money do more for the betterment of life.
I REALLY hope we get a few heroes back like that guy. And he was against unions because he felt they were inefficient; like many corporations IMO. Until then, I guess I'll try to find a job at McDonald's (which they say I'm over- qualified and too old for).
I wonder why they haven't sent back a response on my application for Steve Jobs position? Hmmm. I'm sure you will tell me.
Here I go stirring the pot again.

 

[ILLICEMAN]

Very true but their is also alot of quality out in the world market.Also keep in mind most co. or ourselves look at the best price even when looking for quality.
I am sure not the answer you like but again everyday life needs everyday value.I havent seen very many co.that are still around that don,t look at the bottom line.This keeps them in business and keep their employees in jobs.

 

[Dozerboy]

Wow....Im a little surprised at some of the responses here. Lets make one thing clear though, this is not a union thing or a get rich thing. A 35/hour job up here is a middle class wage after taxes. This is about a corporation making its employees bleed.

Yeah, I guess they all should go and get another job, right?

After all, industry has been decimated in the local area an everybody is looking for locomotive assemblers. I reality the unemployment numbers are at 10-11% (and thats just the people actively looking for work,doesn't include those who have given up) and housing sales are dead flat in the area,so its not like you could just pack up and move on. By the way....how is the who;e "putting on your big boy pants" thing working out for the 10% of Americans put out by the recession?

I understand that business are there to make money,but this is what the whole Occupy movement was about.

You can be fair to your employees AND turn a profit. Many companies do.

If your employer or customer came to you today and told you that they are cutting your pay in half or only paying half the bill....how many here would stand for it? How many could just pick up their families and move on to some other place/job?

Yes you should maybe 2 or 5 more jobs. You do what it take.

There are lot of options rent out rooms in your house or your house and move out. Short sale the house. The 10% of Americans haven't put on there big boy pants for the most part thats why there where they are. If the gov was going to pay you not to work for 2 years how big of hurry would you be to get a job?

No its a bunch of people that want something for nothing. They parked there butts in a public park sponging off the tax payers.

I wouldn't stand for it any longer then I had to. If thats what I had to do YES.

 

[brianbulldozer]

I am just a ditch digger and not an expert on publicly traded corporations, but as I understand it:
Major decisions about plant closures and layoff are made by the the executive team.
The executive team is appointed by the board of directors.
The board of directors is elected by the shareholders.
The primary shareholders of Caterpillar are institutional investors, investment funds, and insurance companies.

If you own mutual funds, have a 401K, have a SEP, have a union pension, have a government pension, have a private employer pension, or purchase insurance, chances are you are directly or indirectly an investor in Caterpillar. You expect the people that manage your pension plans and insurance to do so wisely so that there is money available to pay your retirement and insurance claims. They in turn invest the money in corporations such as Caterpillar with the expectation of a return in the form of a dividend or an appreciation of the stock price. Those elected to the board of directors and appointed to the executive team are tasked with making this happen.

I don't know what part of all this makes corporations evil. I think the current bashing of corporations is mostly about the agenda of those who want to increase the power of government through higher taxes and more regulation. The occupy movement is merely a tool to help make this happen, in my opinion.

 

[alco]

I think most people are looking at this, but not seeing what's really going on. This isn't a union issue, but a corporate greed issue.

Cat is closing the London factory, that's life, that's business, and that's unavoidable. It's unfortunate, and as much as I'd love to see it stay put, it's not going to happen. Does this make me upset? Not really, it's life, and it's business.

What does make me a bit upset, is the way Cat is doing it. They have employees, and the employees, by law, are entitled to severance if the plant closes. Now, if Cat out and out closes the plant, then they pay the severance, deal with the legal and financial issues with the different tax laws, and move on. That's what should happen. However, if they are shut down due to a labour dispute, they can effectively shut the plant down after a specified period of time....I think it's two years, and they don't have to pay all of the costs associated with closing the plant....tax issues, severance, etc, etc.

So, Cat puts out a lowball deal, to either cause a strike, or have excuse to lock them out, and they can sit on it, knowing they have their other plant up and running and able to cover the loco orders. Then, when the time period runs out, they announce the plant closure, and the ex-employees don't get the money they were owed. That's what makes the whole deal underhanded. This is how they are effectively screwing over the workers, by using these kind of tactics, not by cutting wages and benefits, or closing the plant.

Wage cuts and concessions are the way things are going right now, but using a loophole to ensure you don't have to pay your people the money you owe them, is just plain low.

It's not a union vs non union issue at all.....I work non union, and I make almost twice what they were making per hour, and have better benefits too.

 

[562C]

Here here. Cat is closing the plant so they can move south where teh govenment subsidies are better.... We all know there's a corporate welfare system in the states to try and create jobs. Don't knock the workers at a plant that are way more productive than they were a few years ago. It was a done deal long before the negotiations started. We've seen teh same thing happen at a lot of plants here inte h past. Lots listed already..... One that was missed. I used to have a highway tractor. The company I had it on with hauled a whole factory (Motor Wheel) from chatham ontario to Kentucky about 25 years ago because of corporate welfare.. there's nothing new under the sun. Volvo bought out Champion and pretty much did teh same thing with it.

 

[troyharnish]

This is not just a Cat thing, this is an ongoing problem through a lot of manufacturing industries. My father, all my brothers and myself had our first jobs at our local shipyard, it was a rite of passage for us. That shipyard is now gone and closed for years, and folks blame the Union, economy and other things, but the bottom line is this: You can buy a completed ship from China cheaper than you can buy the raw steel on the domestic market. Even the Government bought a ferry built overseas when they had domestic options.

So what does this mean for domestic manufacturing? People shopping at Wal-Mart do not look for a "made in the USA/ Canada" tag, they are shopping for the cheapest option. Those cheaper products come from... China, Korea, Pakistan, Vietnam, all places where there is poverty and millions of people trying to just feed themselves. Anyone who feels that someone who is affected by the Cat plant closure should "put on their big boy pants" do not understand the fight that has already been brought to our soil, and are ignorant of the realities that globalization brings with it. Does ANYONE in the USA or Canada think for a second they can compete with third world countries for wages and benefits?

Looking forward, it's gonna get worse. Mexico can build a super port close to the US border (oh, say, in Punta Colonet), and create a super highway for imported goods from Asia, and easily truck them into the USA and Canada under NAFTA. By dropping protectionist laws, we have sold our manufacturing sectors to the cheapest bidder, and we can't compete. The folks making those products in Asia are not making a living wage, most of the ships crews carrying it are not getting rich, and now the long shoremen and truckers in the USA are the next on the chopping block as mexican alternatives step in and take their workload. Mexico is already making a lot of the "domestic" vehicles you drive. You are free to complain to the corporations, go ahead, call their 1-800 numbers... Most of them are connected to a person in India. We have sold our industries and services out to make them a bit cheaper, and screwed ourselves in the process.

What can be done? Boycott any company that uses dirty tactics to shut down domestic facilities. Buy equipment from makers that look after their workers, and make it clear when you buy their stuff that you are buying it because it is made domestically. Look for the "Made in the USA/ Canada" tag, and spend the extra couple bucks for it. Lobby lawmakers to protect domestic operations. Don't invest in companies that move operations offshore. Protect your way of life, or compete with the third World for your wages. Those "dirty hippies" in the occupy movement might be a glimpse of our future if we do not start addressing the problems.

 

[Davvinciman]

And just to add an addendum to this fine piece of logic, once you have destroyed your own economic base, to whom will your market your product or service? It is kind of ridiculous to see people defending the slaughter of their own economic base and calling it patriotism for the sake of corporations that take government assistance and use it to open up shop in another country. Wake up people. Or don't. You have that right and thank you, troyharnish, I think your synopsis was right on the money.

 

[ILLICEMAN]

We are still on a world market,Co still have to make money and yes people also have to live.I doubt that Cat or any other co would shut down unless they felt their was not any way to work things out.

 

[troyharnish]

I agree with illiceman that *responsible* companies would not take drastic measures unless they felt backed into a corner, but companies are increasingly sending everything possible offshore, because it is now an accepted business practice, and it is accepted because society (while they did not like it), accepted it.

The truly ugly side of globalization is exploitation. A lot of sweatshops are located in Vietnam under communist rule, and the conditions are appalling. The workers do not have a choice to speak out or demand better... Is there anyone reading this that is under the illusion that China has healthy working conditions and comprehensive occupational safety standards? I know of a pulp and paper mill in Canada that shut down paper production, and started sending a raw pulp product to Pakistan because the finishing process was too toxic to handle in North America. We demand a greener footprint from North American companies, but are perfectly OK with buying Chinese toddler toys with lead paint produced in factories that spew toxins into the same environment we share... So, rather than do it right domestically, we hide toxic processes and human rights violations in other countries, and we are somehow OK with it.

 

[225]

In the peoria area they have cut the wages in half 10 years ago. I have never worked for Cat , but when these workers earn less money it affects all of us. They tell me are local school has 40% of the children getting free lunches and many of the childrens parents are cat employees. So I feel that now as a taxpayer I am paying part of cat wages. I have 3 pieces of cat equipment, they will be my last. There parts or there equipment never got cheaper. So how did these lower wages help the average American?