Case 580B shuttle pump...

[Cessna49]

This is my first post on here. I have been a member for a year or so. I have been reading these posts on the 580Bs. I am an experienced mechanic. I serviced some of these old tractors when they were new. But never did any major work on them. I found this old tractor and bought it.
In the past I have drilled the clean out hole for the shuttle and cleaned the shuttle screen. The screen was incredibly dirty, flushed and changed the filter on everything.
After running the tractor for a while I noticed the oil pressure on the engine was going down to 0 at idle, when it got hot. Also I noticed the trans pressure getting low again. So I pulled the engine down and it needed rebuilding. It had a lot of sand in the bearings, which dated 11 and 12 of 72 on them. The crank was scared and needed rebuild. The engine is built now, and so I focused on the shuttle and decided to pull it while the engine was out. So when I got the tank and covers off it looks like it had been under water. The engine was full of slime and now the shuttle looks the same. So the shuttle is split out of the tractor and clutch pack is setting on my work bench. I believe this tractor might have went under water in the flood of 1998 in central Texas. With that said I believe the clutch stack needs rebuild and I cant find any info on the disassembly of the Twin Disc clutch pack. The clutches look good from the outside but I would like to replace the seals on the servos and make sure the slime is not in them.
I purchased the service manual that is on disc. But is very vague on any tear down. I do not want to make any mistakes on this, as I know that parts are hard to come by, and I see some little roll pins in the outer plates.
Can someone on here help me out. Thanks Earl

Hello,

Was wondering if you ever received any info on your shuttle? I am getting ready to tear into one and am also having a hard time finding much info on them.

Thanks
Darren

 

[Centexhoe]

Hello Darren, Sorry I had not checked my emails, it has been a very bad week for me.

No I didn't get any info on the forum, however I found an old friend of mine that had retired from Case power. He put me in contact with an other guy here in San Antonio that had quote "cut his teeth on these old machines". Most of the old guys are retired or have passed on. So I went by there and he let me look at an old service manual and explained how it come apart.

So you have to split the tractor all the way back to where the transmission starts. The engine has to come out of coarse, mine was out already out for rebuild, the console had to be lifted up by the ROPS cab with straps and come-a-long, all the steering, hydraulic lines, fuel tank, battery, battery box, brake linkages, brake pedal assy, top shuttle plates and torque converter charge valve ect. has to come off. Don't get discouraged when pulling the top plates. The large one has two dowels in it, and it is hard to get off!!! The dowels keep the charge pump aligned. Then you split the cases at the back of the shuttle. Be very careful not loose the shims and snap ring at the rear, where the shuttle splines to the transmission. When reinstalling the shuttle case assy. I think there has to be a minimum gap of .025 and a maximum of .045 at those shims IIRC.
Once the shuttle is out, the friction pack will slip out the back of the case, after removing one bolt and retaining washer, and gear. There is a spanner nut on the back of the assembly. remove that and the planet gear. There are some thrust bearings and washers in this area, keep them organized. That is the easy part. Then you need to have a press of good size, put the long end downward in the press, this end has the snap ring recessed in the last plate. Push the shaft down through the assembly. There is a long square key that goes all the way through keeping everything aligned. Now once you are pressing and it take some pressure because you will be moving the entire stack off the shaft at one time! Press until the first plate becomes loose. stop and unstack the frictions, keeping them in order and pay close attention to the inner bellville flat springs between them and the plates. There are timing marks on the spline, on the shaft that spline into the slick plates, they are 5 teeth apart and each bellville spring has to be in the correct place. When you are stacking the plates the first bellville spring will line up on the right mark then the second will line up on the left mark and so on alternating. All this does is align the waves of the spring. Also at this time there are some very thin small shims in the center of the stack. These set up the distance the piston has to travel to engage the clutch pack. Keep them in order too! Once that is unstacked then continue pressing until the center piston assy. comes loose. Now there are two lubricating valves and springs in the piston, pay attention how they are positioned. Now that the piston assy. is off then you can unstack the second set of frictions, plates, shims ect. Once all the loose parts are off the shaft, you can turn over the shaft and press the first plate right back down into position, back against the snap ring and you are ready to clean it up and start the reassembly. If you have any book on this you will see a set of U-shaped steel tool plates that hold the friction set together. All these do is hold the frictions and springs together while you press the piston back on. These tools are not sold by Case any more, so you either make them or borrow them.
On the long torque tube shaft there are three locking piston rings. Check the torque tube case where these rings ride down inside, if there is ware there you might have to take the tube/case to a machine shop and have it bored out and put a sleeve back in to bring it back into tolerance? The rest of the shuttle case is pretty straight forward, just gears and bearings.
The torque converter is pretty simple too. If you have ever done a converter on any Caterpillar it is about the same. The rebuild kit for the converter is basic.
Make sure and check your pump for ware too. I had pressure problems with my hoe and did the drill out and tap the bottom of the case to clean the suction screen, well the screen was damaged and I had epoxied it back in place through the tapped hole. After pulling the top plate and looking at the pump and suction tube, I feel that the screen was never adequate in the first place. I am going to redo my screen and increase the area of it.
The Twin Disc shuttle is more work but I think it is a good one. I hope you are as lucky as I was. My frictions look like new and all I needed was seals and gaskets. I did this because there was a lot of debris in the system and was worried that the apply pistons were full of junk and would fail after putting the new engine back in. However the pistons were clean, just were in need of new seals. The old ones were deteriorating going bad. The frictions plates alone are real costly. I spent over $800.00 just for seals and gaskets.
My engine, shuttle, and transmission had so much crap in them, that I feel it must have been in the flood of 1998, here in central Texas.

Well Darren, I hope this helps you. If you need anything else let me know. I will help if can.

 

[Cessna49]

Hello Darren, Sorry I had not checked my emails, it has been a very bad week for me.

No I didn't get any info on the forum, however I found an old friend of mine that had retired from Case power. He put me in contact with an other guy here in San Antonio that had quote "cut his teeth on these old machines". Most of the old guys are retired or have passed on. So I went by there and he let me look at an old service manual and explained how it come apart.

So you have to split the tractor all the way back to where the transmission starts. The engine has to come out of coarse, mine was out already out for rebuild, the console had to be lifted up by the ROPS cab with straps and come-a-long, all the steering, hydraulic lines, fuel tank, battery, battery box, brake linkages, brake pedal assy, top shuttle plates and torque converter charge valve ect. has to come off. Don't get discouraged when pulling the top plates. The large one has two dowels in it, and it is hard to get off!!! The dowels keep the charge pump aligned. Then you split the cases at the back of the shuttle. Be very careful not loose the shims and snap ring at the rear, where the shuttle splines to the transmission. When reinstalling the shuttle case assy. I think there has to be a minimum gap of .025 and a maximum of .045 at those shims IIRC.
Once the shuttle is out, the friction pack will slip out the back of the case, after removing one bolt and retaining washer, and gear. There is a spanner nut on the back of the assembly. remove that and the planet gear. There are some thrust bearings and washers in this area, keep them organized. That is the easy part. Then you need to have a press of good size, put the long end downward in the press, this end has the snap ring recessed in the last plate. Push the shaft down through the assembly. There is a long square key that goes all the way through keeping everything aligned. Now once you are pressing and it take some pressure because you will be moving the entire stack off the shaft at one time! Press until the first plate becomes loose. stop and unstack the frictions, keeping them in order and pay close attention to the inner bellville flat springs between them and the plates. There are timing marks on the spline, on the shaft that spline into the slick plates, they are 5 teeth apart and each bellville spring has to be in the correct place. When you are stacking the plates the first bellville spring will line up on the right mark then the second will line up on the left mark and so on alternating. All this does is align the waves of the spring. Also at this time there are some very thin small shims in the center of the stack. These set up the distance the piston has to travel to engage the clutch pack. Keep them in order too! Once that is unstacked then continue pressing until the center piston assy. comes loose. Now there are two lubricating valves and springs in the piston, pay attention how they are positioned. Now that the piston assy. is off then you can unstack the second set of frictions, plates, shims ect. Once all the loose parts are off the shaft, you can turn over the shaft and press the first plate right back down into position, back against the snap ring and you are ready to clean it up and start the reassembly. If you have any book on this you will see a set of U-shaped steel tool plates that hold the friction set together. All these do is hold the frictions and springs together while you press the piston back on. These tools are not sold by Case any more, so you either make them or borrow them.
On the long torque tube shaft there are three locking piston rings. Check the torque tube case where these rings ride down inside, if there is ware there you might have to take the tube/case to a machine shop and have it bored out and put a sleeve back in to bring it back into tolerance? The rest of the shuttle case is pretty straight forward, just gears and bearings.
The torque converter is pretty simple too. If you have ever done a converter on any Caterpillar it is about the same. The rebuild kit for the converter is basic.
Make sure and check your pump for ware too. I had pressure problems with my hoe and did the drill out and tap the bottom of the case to clean the suction screen, well the screen was damaged and I had epoxied it back in place through the tapped hole. After pulling the top plate and looking at the pump and suction tube, I feel that the screen was never adequate in the first place. I am going to redo my screen and increase the area of it.
The Twin Disc shuttle is more work but I think it is a good one. I hope you are as lucky as I was. My frictions look like new and all I needed was seals and gaskets. I did this because there was a lot of debris in the system and was worried that the apply pistons were full of junk and would fail after putting the new engine back in. However the pistons were clean, just were in need of new seals. The old ones were deteriorating going bad. The frictions plates alone are real costly. I spent over $800.00 just for seals and gaskets.
My engine, shuttle, and transmission had so much crap in them, that I feel it must have been in the flood of 1998, here in central Texas.

Well Darren, I hope this helps you. If you need anything else let me know. I will help if can.

WOW! I am very sorry I didn't see your reply sooner... Thank you very much for taking the time and laying out the info like you did! I got my shuttle removed from the tractor, I have not opened it up yet. I do believe I have a twin disc shuttle. The clutch discs look good from what I can see from just removing the top cover.

My shuttle would work good if I could get it to engage, my problem is or was that there was a very fine line from the shuttle engaging or not. I would feather the clutch pedal to find the sweet spot while trying to keep the pressure in the green zone. I would have to use my hand to feather the clutch pedal because it was so touchy. Most of the time I couldn't get it to engage. It seems like an issue somewhere in the valve body rather then in the clutch packs or converter, maybe someone has had similar issues?? The pickup screen does not appear to be clogged, no debris found in shuttle. I did not pressure test anything prior to removing the shuttle like I probably should have, but i was parting out this particular backhoe so at the time didn't see a need.

 

[Henrik Almberg]

Well i went in with a camera into the shuttle.
There was a shitload of debris... :S

 

[Tinkerer]

Welcome to HEF, Henrik !
I see you registered in July. Now - your first post !

 

[DarrenS14]

This is a great post. Has anyone done this to an early CK? I have a 67 CK and need to flush the shuttle and clean the screen.
Thanks,
Darren

 

[Russell Rose]

where can i find exact measurements to drill and tap to gain access to the pump tube screen? i’ve tried everything else, hoping it’s a clogged screen.

 

[Tinkerer]

Welcome to HEF, Russell !
Here is a link to an extremely helpful amount of 580B shuttle information. If you have time read the whole thread.
If you don't, go to page #7, post #129.
Thanks to pac11adpa really good photo is there with the measurements.
This is his photo. ↓↓↓↓

 

[Jakester55]

Good morning. Not really new here, have been reading posts for a couple years, but this is my first reply. Having pretty much the same issues as others with these old 580b shuttles. Morning sickness, sluggish engagement or none when good and warm. Forward seems to work well until it gets warm then will not engage, usually will move the machine but no power. Forward works well when cool. What I am experiencing different than others is NO reverse when hot, and always hesitates going into reverse. Dash gauge will not rise in to the green in reverse when hot but sometimes will positively engage in forward (no power)until it cools for a few minutes. I have changed the fluid and flushed the system as best I could. I was unable to get the drain plug out of the converter. I have not drilled "the hole" and cleaned the screen yet, next project! The thing that has me confused is the difference between forward and reverse. Brakes were not working when I got the machine and I am assuming reverse was used as the the brakes for a long time. Does anyone have any idea why reverse is so much worse than forward? clutches? Oring maybe? Seals. I am lifetime wrench bender but not much experience with automatic transmissions or anything like this shuttle. Gear boxes are a breeze. I am thinking about Marvel Mystery oil to cut any varnish. And maybe running half ATF to increase the viscosity of the oil. A friend suggested Lucas Stop slip additive, thoughts? Anyone tried Seafoam in one of these? Any suggestions or info will be immensely appreciated! You guys are awesome!

Jake

 

[Norbert Wildhaber]

Welcome to HEF, Russell !
Here is a link to an extremely helpful amount of 580B shuttle information. If you have time read the whole thread.
If you don't, go to page #7, post #129.
Thanks to pac11adpa really good photo is there with the measurements.
This is his photo. ↓↓↓↓
View attachment 233670

Where is the link?

 

[Tinkerer]

Welcome to HEF, Norbert !
https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/case-580b-shuttle-pump.19055/page-7

 

[Tinkerer]

Welcome to HEF, Jakester55 !

 

[Luis Sevilla]

So I bought this 1972 Case 580B not running off my neighbor, had the IP rebuilt and it fired right up. Anyways, so shortly after running it around the yard right away I noticed the shuttle in forward would start slipping, at the same time the pressure gauge would read low. I believe the cause of the lower pressure in trans is due to the fluid temp, and I thought it was being caused by the clutches in the shuttle being worn out and slipping. So I has my local Case Dealer in Fontana CA build me a rebuild kit for it; it ran about $1400. While I waited for the parts I split the tractor by rolling the engine forward then, I removed the "torque tube". So with the new friction plates in hand and the disc (26 total) I pulled the Rockford Shuttle out of the toque tube for further inspection, and to my surprise the forward and reverse clutches look like they're in good shape. I thought at least the forward clutches would be worn since that was the one that gave me the most issues. The shuttle pump P/U tube and some debris however I don't think it was enough to cause issues.
SO my question is should I look into getting the torque converter rebuilt or how can I go about testing it or should I just put it back together and do more diagnostic testing. I'm going to install the new disc in the shuttle while I'm here. and clean everything really good while it's apart.
After reading the forums on here I'm starting to think it's normal for these tractors to loose their torque once you start working them hard.
I will post more pictures and update as I move along with this project. Any advice is appreciated if anyone still post on here LOL.
Paid $4000 for tractor
$1300 Injection pump
$1400 shuttle rebuild kit
$ ??? 5 hydraulic cylinders need seal kits

Big money pit for this broke 20 year old. LOL

 

[diezelnut]

I drilled the hole in my Case 580CK. Cleaned the screen and flushed the housing. Out came chunks of a small gear.
Anyone know where this gear came from?

After performing the screen cleaning, the tranny pressure increased, the whine was all but gone, and the tractor shifts and moves with authority.
I drove the bucket up against a dirt pile in first gear, applied throttle, and wheel spun.
Prior to the procedure, it would whine loudly, and once shifted, it would take 20 seconds to engage. It had no power (slipping).

 

[diezelnut]

I think the mystery gear chunks are from a failed starter bendix that found it's way to the sump.
This happened long before I got it. Never had the starter out.

 

[jay4706]

Amazing ide for the drilling hole. I did 3.25 inches and it was. Bang on. Flushed with deisel a bunch. Screen was completely plugged. Anyone know if it's bottom feed only? Or does the screen have sides to clean off.

One my drill and tap come tomorrow I'll make the hole bigger and test it out! Thanks everyone.

I got about 5 times what's on the filter cloth out so far when rinsing with deisel. More to come I'm sure.

 

[Tinkerer]

diezelnut ;
I have seen broken teeth like that myself.
I would advise you to remove the starter and take good look at all of the ring gear teeth.
It may be on the verge of failure.
The wrong number of teeth on the Bendix drive gear will cause teeth to be broken off like in your picture.

 

[jay4706]

Amazing ide for the drilling hole. I did 3.25 inches and it was. Bang on. Flushed with deisel a bunch. Screen was completely plugged. Anyone know if it's bottom feed only? Or does the screen have sides to clean off.

One my drill and tap come tomorrow I'll make the hole bigger and test it out! Thanks everyone.

I got about 5 times what's on the filter cloth out so far when rinsing with deisel. More to come I'm sure.

Sorry I had to re post this reply on this thread since that's where all the chatter about the hole was.

Hey diezlnut, what's the size of your threads? Did you to the 3/4 pipe thread? I was thinking of drilling a 1 inch hole about 1/8 down. Giving me a ledge and putting a rubber o ring on bolt that can counter sink? I've never seen any talk on here about the finish process since everyone is lroba ly so excited to just use the thing.