If your injectors are atomizing fuel and you have good compression the engine should fire. It takes air, atomized fuel at the right time, and compression to build the heat needed to fire the fuel. One of these you don’t have.
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Case 350 Crawler kicking my butt
- Thread starter frickenbored
- Start date
Flat Thunder Channel
Senior Member
Dieseldog so a rebuild? I see the hone and your pistons sitting off to the side...... The more I think about it I would hook it up to 24v at the starter just to see if spinning her faster makes a difference. Some high pressure pumps have valving / mechanisms that use centrifugal force. I'd also hook up an auxiliary jug of fuel just to rule out the contamination factor. Maybe check the valves to make sure they are not sticky. The compression test should have showed it, but they could be sticking intermittently. Just talking out loud as a green mechanic
Bill Edwards
Well-Known Member
Something not right here. I don't have any information on these engines but I've known diesels start and run quite well on less compression than you have, with a sniff of ether to make it turn faster it should run quite easily.
The fact that it's barely smoking makes me think it's still fuel related, when fuel is injected but doesn't burn you normally get plenty of light coloured smoke, it should be belching out and making your nose sting. Given you had it running on ether and briefly under its own power I still think it's fuel related.
All a diesel needs is some compression - the more the merrier but you can get away with quite low amounts at the cost of power and starting ability, fuel to be atomised and for it to happen at the right time.
In other words some compression, fuel and timing are all you need.
The fact that it's barely smoking makes me think it's still fuel related, when fuel is injected but doesn't burn you normally get plenty of light coloured smoke, it should be belching out and making your nose sting. Given you had it running on ether and briefly under its own power I still think it's fuel related.
All a diesel needs is some compression - the more the merrier but you can get away with quite low amounts at the cost of power and starting ability, fuel to be atomised and for it to happen at the right time.
In other words some compression, fuel and timing are all you need.
frickenbored
Well-Known Member
Poorly atomizing fuel will affect how easy it starts... also injectors firing into zero atmospheres is vastly different than firing into a piston with over 27 atmospheres of pressure
Now this peaks my intrest...I have almost zero knowledge of diesel high pressure fuel pumps, or really Diesels in general. I've never liked them and probably never will. That said the injectors all fired beautifully out of the engine...so it's possible that they don't fire in the cylinder? I've always thought it was a fuel problem because of how sudden this problem came about (one minute it ran and the next minute it didn't). But when I saw the injectors fire I figured that was that. I figured it took 2300 psi to open the pintle no matter what. I wish I could find something concrete with the pump before I spend a small fortune on it.
Flat Thunder Channel
Senior Member
The pressure of the fuel inside the injector must be higher than pressure surrounding the nozzle. Outside of the engine it has zero pressure (actually just atmospheric pressure). When installed the fuel pressure must be higher than the pressure of the compressed air mixture inside the cylinder. Otherwise it won't spray fuel in the chamber. IE the pressure created by the compression stroke is pushing on the nozzle oriface, holding the fuel in, when the proper amount of fuel pressure isn't achieved
Fourtencustoms
Well-Known Member
Likely the best thing I have read online in YEARS!!!!!!!!!
Hang in there. I knew basically NOTHING about diesels about 6 years ago, now I own 3ea 7.3 trucks and several diesel engines. I had the injectors out of my 97 F350 7.3 engine about 5 times in one summer just trying to get it right. Well worth the fight. Hang in there! These are simple machines. When that Case does run it will likely run for the rest of our lives. I have a 73 Case 350 dozer outside, that case engine runs like a hot rod...... fires right up with the bump of the key, these things are TOUGH!!!!!!!!!!
Your diesel engine MUST have enough RPM when cranking or it will never fire. Maybe post up a short video of this cranking when you get the pan back on....pictures and video can help these dudes internet mechanic big time.
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dieseldog5.9
Senior Member
Well i bought it as a basket case, engine on one pallet, trans on another, and had to buy the injection pump from another guy, Got it all together and had a crank no start, similar to this case story, acted odd on ether, get it cranking spray some either would just stop turning, made funny puffing noise when cranking. Pulled the front cover to verify cam, injection pump timing, then pulled the head and found water had got in the cylinders and stuck the rings, thes engines only had 2 rings in the 70s, so here we are honing cylinders.
frickenbored
Well-Known Member
I took this video last summer...nothing's changed since then lol. Valve cover was off because I was checking for bent push rods and TDC. And I'm not dumping ether into it, the can was empty. The starter is a brand new high torque starter.
frickenbored
Well-Known Member
Looking at that video now I can see the fuel shut off lever is in the on position (fuel turned on) and the exhaust is barely smoking. It would puff clouds when starting it when it actually worked. That pump has to be the problem.
Flat Thunder Channel
Senior Member
Definitely looks like she is cranking over fast enough to start. I too would lean towards a 'no fuel' situation. Did you try the auxiliary fuel tank? I know you mentioned in previous posts the main bowl feeding the pump was not filling. Maybe it has debris in the tank or line feeding the pump? I would investigate information on the internet regarding the high pressure pump. Some units have internal shutoff valves that get sticky and lock in the closed position. A green diesel mechanics perspective.
dieseldog5.9
Senior Member
It took off with some ether, I didnt read all 11 pages but looks like it needs fuel, crack the injectors, and prime the system again. Fuel shutoff solenoid not opening maybe.
Ronsii
Senior Member
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Yep, if it is 'trying' to go but not quite and is giving small puffs it more than likely still has air bubbles in the system between the IP and injectors. Of course this doesn't rule out issues with the IP... any issues whether it be air intrusion, pump issues, crank speed, cylinder pressure will all add up to make it harder to start... you get enough 'issues' all together and you get NO start
DMiller
Senior Member
Took off on the little bit of ether and also consumed quite a bit of oil by the smoke, not so much fuel. Take the lines loose and validate the pump is sending fuel to the nozzles, ALL the nozzles. If not there are MORE issues defeating fuel delivery.
Frinkenboard
"It almost opens the hole all the way" post #36
I would revisit the fuel delivery set up again. My guess, you're bypassing to much fuel and not building enough pressure.
Remove the regulator assembly and turn that adjuster in to about halfway...... 45%- 50% Closed
Bleed the fuel system again, fire it up
Once you get it fired up, idle it only. Shut it down and fine tune it with a pressure gauge at bottom of pump below fuel delivery regulator and set pressure to specs with that same adjusting screw. Good Luck!
"It almost opens the hole all the way" post #36
I would revisit the fuel delivery set up again. My guess, you're bypassing to much fuel and not building enough pressure.
Remove the regulator assembly and turn that adjuster in to about halfway...... 45%- 50% Closed
Bleed the fuel system again, fire it up
Once you get it fired up, idle it only. Shut it down and fine tune it with a pressure gauge at bottom of pump below fuel delivery regulator and set pressure to specs with that same adjusting screw. Good Luck!
Flat Thunder Channel
Senior Member
Eagerly waiting to hear the results of the regulator adjustment. It sounds like it could be a good direction. Thanks for the manual. I downloaded it just in case I am lucky enough to run into one of these in the future. Although my wife might disagree about another toy at the house......I need a bigger garage. :/
Bill Edwards
Well-Known Member
Fuel.
Sorry I can't tell you which part of the fuel system is at fault, but it's not getting fuel.
That's clear from the lack of smoke (the bit of blue is oil) and the fact it runs off ether.
Sorry I can't tell you which part of the fuel system is at fault, but it's not getting fuel.
That's clear from the lack of smoke (the bit of blue is oil) and the fact it runs off ether.
frickenbored
Well-Known Member
Frinkenboard
"It almost opens the hole all the way" post #36
I would revisit the fuel delivery set up again. My guess, you're bypassing to much fuel and not building enough pressure.
Remove the regulator assembly and turn that adjuster in to about halfway...... 45%- 50% Closed
Bleed the fuel system again, fire it up
Once you get it fired up, idle it only. Shut it down and fine tune it with a pressure gauge at bottom of pump below fuel delivery regulator and set pressure to specs with that same adjusting screw. Good Luck!
I'll give this a shot next. I just got the new oil pan gasket today so between today and tomorrow I'll get that put back on, fill her with oil and go from there. I'm back on the train of thought that this is a fuel problem but because one minute the engine ran and the next minute it didn't I'm thinking more of an internal pump problem. I watched some rebuild videos on these pumps and more than one video mentioned a cracked vane pump ring, that sounds like something that would make sense.
dieseldog5.9
Senior Member
Sometimes being a pro, is knowing when you should stop. For example I had a customer earlier this year who rolled a machine over, and pulled the injectors apart to get oil out of the system, however he didnt pull the injectors out, he pulled them apart. Ran with such a knock I thought it was a rod knock, untill he let me in on his little secret, we put new injectors in it purred like a kitten.
The point is, I don't get into Injection pumps or take injectors apart. There are people who specialize in just that, I take them off the machine and take them to an injection pump shop.
The point is, I don't get into Injection pumps or take injectors apart. There are people who specialize in just that, I take them off the machine and take them to an injection pump shop.
Bill Edwards
Well-Known Member
I too don't work on injector pumps or injectors. It's not exactly cheap to have them worked on (well, injector testing is free but repairs soon cost money) but it's specialised work and of course I need to know they're done right.
And with the hassle of removing some injector pumps, you need to know that when it is refitted the problem will be gone.
And with the hassle of removing some injector pumps, you need to know that when it is refitted the problem will be gone.
frickenbored
Well-Known Member
I don't plan on rebuilding the pump myself. I used to be a dealership mechanic, rebuilt engines, automatic transmissions, manual transmissions, steering gear boxes, transfer cases, axles, performances engines and transmissions for me and my friends but I've never cared for Diesels. I had to replace a turbo on a 2007 or 2008 diesel Grand Cherokee with a Mercedes 3.0l diesel and a turbo on a 6.7l cumins, after those 2 jobs I've sworn off Diesels. I just don't like anything about them. I've watched a ton of of these roosa master rebuild videos and I'm about 70% sure I could do it but i don't think I will.