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Can't decide between CTL and tire machine

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
Need to buy a machine for the spring here and can't decide which way to go. It will be used for backfilling basements, the occasional driveway/garage pad prep, breaking out concrete, snow removal, etc. The biggest use will be dirt work, the others is just rare. Basically to go with my 6 ton mini ex to help with anything it can't do. I was hoping to budget about $20k, which will get me a decent wheeled machine, but I need to spend at the very least $30k to get a decent track machine. My only experience running a track machine is a PT30 which was nice, but hear nothing but bad things about places i've rented them from. None of them would carry them if someone else made a comparable machine, a lot of problems and incredibly expensive to maintain, so not even considering one and it's a bit small anyway. I really don't like the idea of spending $30k on a machine that might see 300 hours a year, and one big repair and the machine is costing me a fortune when it's not getting used a lot. If I would use it less i'd rent, but i'm guessing i'd spend about $10k a year in rent, which easily justifies the purchase to me. If I spent $15k on a wheeled machine I wouldn't be heartbroken to have to rent a track machine a few times a year for the tough ones.

A lot of basements I do have 4-5' sideyard so not much room to work. I mostly try to reach in from the ends with the mini, but a 5' skidsteer would help a lot, and the flotation of tracks would be ideal. I've got by with a 6' wheeled machine ok and for the right price I think i'm ok buying one like it. A nice one would be something like a Case 60xt with 12x16.5 tire, fairly light and narrow but still the wide tires so would have more flotation then a heavier machine.

Units i've looked at are Case 420-440ct (series 3), Case TR270, TR320, Takeuchi's I have the mini ex and it's been good and i've heard they are a reliable machine. Reviews seem to be mixed about over tire tracks, and I don't like the possibility of damaging a chain, i'm not even sure if that's a worthwhile option? But it seems like peoples opinions are a track machine isn't a good buy over 3,000 hours unless it's had a lot of work? For my price point i'm looking at maybe a 2008-2012 with anywhere from 2000-4000 hours in a track.

Things I like about CTL
Flotation
Can do almost anything a wheeled machine can do, but not the other way around
Narrower
Will do the job faster in the mud, etc

Things I like about wheeled machine
Lower purchase price
Lower cost to operate
Lower potential cost of repairs like drive motors
Easier to maintain
 

m_ice

Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2015
Messages
15
Location
illinois
Would a mini skid fit your needs?
They are smaller but for as little as you will use it and the tight area you could get a nice tracked machine for $20k.
We love our Ditch witch sk850
 

KSSS

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
Messages
4,316
Location
Idaho
Occupation
excavation
Costs per hour certainly go up when you own a track machine over 3K hours. I run a track machine TR340 and a wheeled machine SV340 with the 14X17.5 tires. We backfill with them as well and in that application the track machine is generally more productive. However it does depend on how you are digging your basements. If you are stock piling the material in piles away from the foundation, a wheeled machine I have found is faster than a tracked machine. If you are leaving the material around the hole and grading to allow access for concrete forms and cement trucks then the CTL is better in the loose material. A lot depends on the typical soil conditions you see as well, for us it is typically cobble rock, which can be hard on the undercarriage of a CTL.

Running the big tires on the wheeled machine really is a great set up, you can actually put the power to the ground, it is faster, a little more dump height. I am not sure what is best for what you do, it sounds like you are aware of the issues with both. If you can go with the wheels and rent the CTL as needed it would be the least expensive route. If you wanted to go that way, I would try and find a 440-S3 if you could, but even a straight 440 is good as well just no pilots.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
Would a mini skid fit your needs?
They are smaller but for as little as you will use it and the tight area you could get a nice tracked machine for $20k.
We love our Ditch witch sk850

Something that size would be handy for the odd time, but not much value for so many other times like loading trucks, etc or back filling the bigger areas would be way too slow. I'd rather buy bigger then rent for the smaller stuff.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
Costs per hour certainly go up when you own a track machine over 3K hours. I run a track machine TR340 and a wheeled machine SV340 with the 14X17.5 tires. We backfill with them as well and in that application the track machine is generally more productive. However it does depend on how you are digging your basements. If you are stock piling the material in piles away from the foundation, a wheeled machine I have found is faster than a tracked machine. If you are leaving the material around the hole and grading to allow access for concrete forms and cement trucks then the CTL is better in the loose material. A lot depends on the typical soil conditions you see as well, for us it is typically cobble rock, which can be hard on the undercarriage of a CTL.

Running the big tires on the wheeled machine really is a great set up, you can actually put the power to the ground, it is faster, a little more dump height. I am not sure what is best for what you do, it sounds like you are aware of the issues with both. If you can go with the wheels and rent the CTL as needed it would be the least expensive route. If you wanted to go that way, I would try and find a 440-S3 if you could, but even a straight 440 is good as well just no pilots.

Mostly clay and sand here, but finding most to be quite wet so dealing with that, especially in the winter is a pain. A lot of the time everything is piled in the rear to allow access to the front for cribbing. So carrying a bit, and loading roughly half into dump to bring around front. 440 is a nice size. I borrow either a 75xt or 430 now and find the size to work. Ideally a bit smaller wouldn't hurt to make it easier to haul with my mini ex, but not a deal breaker.
 

Mike At Tak

New Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
1
Location
Oregon
Need to buy a machine for the spring here and can't decide which way to go. It will be used for backfilling basements, the occasional driveway/garage pad prep, breaking out concrete, snow removal, etc. The biggest use will be dirt work, the others is just rare. Basically to go with my 6 ton mini ex to help with anything it can't do. I was hoping to budget about $20k, which will get me a decent wheeled machine, but I need to spend at the very least $30k to get a decent track machine. My only experience running a track machine is a PT30 which was nice, but hear nothing but bad things about places i've rented them from. None of them would carry them if someone else made a comparable machine, a lot of problems and incredibly expensive to maintain, so not even considering one and it's a bit small anyway. I really don't like the idea of spending $30k on a machine that might see 300 hours a year, and one big repair and the machine is costing me a fortune when it's not getting used a lot. If I would use it less i'd rent, but i'm guessing i'd spend about $10k a year in rent, which easily justifies the purchase to me. If I spent $15k on a wheeled machine I wouldn't be heartbroken to have to rent a track machine a few times a year for the tough ones.

A lot of basements I do have 4-5' sideyard so not much room to work. I mostly try to reach in from the ends with the mini, but a 5' skidsteer would help a lot, and the flotation of tracks would be ideal. I've got by with a 6' wheeled machine ok and for the right price I think i'm ok buying one like it. A nice one would be something like a Case 60xt with 12x16.5 tire, fairly light and narrow but still the wide tires so would have more flotation then a heavier machine.

Units i've looked at are Case 420-440ct (series 3), Case TR270, TR320, Takeuchi's I have the mini ex and it's been good and i've heard they are a reliable machine. Reviews seem to be mixed about over tire tracks, and I don't like the possibility of damaging a chain, i'm not even sure if that's a worthwhile option? But it seems like peoples opinions are a track machine isn't a good buy over 3,000 hours unless it's had a lot of work? For my price point i'm looking at maybe a 2008-2012 with anywhere from 2000-4000 hours in a track.

Things I like about CTL
Flotation
Can do almost anything a wheeled machine can do, but not the other way around
Narrower
Will do the job faster in the mud, etc

Things I like about wheeled machine
Lower purchase price
Lower cost to operate
Lower potential cost of repairs like drive motors
Easier to maintain
I live on the high desert north of Bend Oregon. I bought a Tak TL8 and a Tak 260 and am sold on the strength and durability of the machines. Having a great dealer 10 miles away doesn't hurt either. I am general contractor doing turn key projects so building houses shops, driveways, pushouts and septic systems. Our ground is lava ash or lava flow. Lots of hammer work. As far as wheels or tracks I am a track man. Working in the open areas the tracks are smoother for the operator. Working inside foundations etc. the tracks tear up the surface turning tight but the ash is like sand so easy to fix. Working on turf or grass the wheels might be less harsh on the ground surface. I thought about a TL 10 and glad I stayed with the 8. The 8 is way bigger than it looks in power and performance. Having run dozers all my life I am amazed at the speed and dexterity of the TL8. I believe it would keep up with a D3 due to it's power and quickness. Good luck in your choice!
 

wrc

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
156
Location
Topeka
Don't rule out a wheeled machine such as the 60xt a very solid machine if I may add. Then consider a set of over the tire tracks. They come in both steel and rubber versions. I like the rubber ones for what I do verses the steel. They definitely are not a track machine but it sure do beat a wheel machine. I think my tracks costed right around 3600 delivered. So buy that 15k skidsteer and a 4k set of rubber tracks and have both machines
 

skata

Senior Member
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
1,541
Location
midwest
i would never consider a wheeled machine again, unless i never needed to be on dirt.
 

DoyleX

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
571
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Lever Puller, Gear Jammer, Pipe Twister
I remember when track machines came out. None of us small guys could justify the price. So we would demo one for a few days when you needed the production to pay. Steel tracks are a big help but cost about the same to run as a dedicated track system and not near the machine. Running steel tracks, a set of bushings and tires would last about 700-1000hrs You start putting the pencil to the paper and your paying for a track machine but running tires w/tracks.

Track machines are the dirt work standard and will make a worthless operator productive. There is a few operating rules for longer track life but to each his own.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
I'd really like to max out at $20k budget, $15k would be great, can't touch a decent track machine for that, $30k don't even buy much. And like I said, for the tiny bit of dirt work, if it takes me a bit longer so be it. I can rent a small track machine for $225 a day when I need it. The over tire tracks are interesting, i'd certainly consider them. The 60xt would be great, but man it is hard to buy a skid steer right now, the 410 sold and i'm noticing anything for sale is selling quick unless the price is insane. The Tak sold fast too.

It would be a no brainer if I was putting 1000+ hours on it a year, but to spend at least $30k-40k for a machine that won't be used a lot I can't really justify. Not to mention, on concrete asphalt etc I don't need the track, and if anything they will be slower and get burnt up incredibly fast.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
What hours would you guys say is too many? My dads 75xt has over 8000 on it and it runs good, still digs great, but considering how poorly it's been looked after, aside for needing pins bad is still a good machine. The only real repairs in 12 years and like 5-6k hours is the machine is on it's 3rd set of drive motors other then that just little stuff. I'm wondering if I should consider machines with 5-7k hours if the price is right, like around $10-12k. Could last me years for not much money, if it's not a money pit.
 

RTSmith

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
420
Location
Middle Tenn.
Occupation
Amateur demolition & dirt pusher
Well, using steel OTT tracks are like having chains for mud on a wheeled machine. In my experience, there is no real flotation gain like bottom rollers on a CTL give you. I have never used rubber OTT. I don't see a wheeled machine with steel OTT being a substitute for a CTL.
 

ilovetracks

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2017
Messages
80
Location
northeast GA
buy what you NEED, if tires makes it happen then you're cheaper going in and cheaper run costs. No doubt track machines are better but they cost more to run. I don't know about where you live but here cheapest price always wins, so if your overhead is cheaper you'll be the guy working.
 
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