Buying a Top Kick

[Willie B]

I have a Chevy C65 1976 model. It has a gas 427, and 5 speed with two speed rear end. It uses a LOT of gas.
I have an opportunity to upgrade to a fire truck. It is a Top Kick GMC 1990 a bit heavier. It has a Caterpillar 3208 naturally aspirated 10.4 litre V8 coupled to an Allison automatic. Automatic is not my preference, but I'll live with it if it is dependable. It has 31000 miles, and an unspecified amount of sitting still running. These small town fire trucks, if bought new are usually pretty nice, and a long way from worn out.
Anyone with any advice?

Willie

 

[RZucker]

I have a Chevy C65 1976 model. It has a gas 427, and 5 speed with two speed rear end. It uses a LOT of gas.
I have an opportunity to upgrade to a fire truck. It is a Top Kick GMC 1990 a bit heavier. It has a Caterpillar 3208 naturally aspirated 10.4 litre V8 coupled to an Allison automatic. Automatic is not my preference, but I'll live with it if it is dependable. It has 31000 miles, and an unspecified amount of sitting still running. These small town fire trucks, if bought new are usually pretty nice, and a long way from worn out.
Anyone with any advice?

Willie

The last of the 3208's weren't bad engines, with 31K miles and no doubt some pumping and idle time, it wouldn't scare me too badly. That said.. which Allison trans does it have? 545 or 600 series? That's going to be the game changer. I worked on trucks with the 3208 and 545's and well it wasn't pretty, but they were easy to pull and rebuild. 643's or 653's were much more reliable. Believe it or not, some Turbo 400 parts could actually make a 545 more reliable, Forward clutch plates come to mind IIRC.

 

[Willie B]

I'm not sure which Allison.

 

[RZucker]

I'm not sure which Allison.

That is the 64 dollar question. I would find out which one and then go from there. A 545 might be fine for a service truck or anything else around 26K or less, but not to tow a dozer or backhoe around.

 

[crane operator]

1990 would be toward the last of the 3208's. Naturals could be set from 170 hp to 230, a turbo one will be 230 or 250. I used to have 2 in my 25 ton grove cranes, I've since changed them to 8.3 cummins.

3208's start really easy in cold weather. I had better luck with the natural I had than the turbo, but the two cranes they were installed in were both right around 50,000lbs, which is really too much for a 3208. I would get around 4-6 years out of them in that application. If you're just making a small box dump out of it, you should be fine, its just not a 425hp 3406.

If the automatic gives you fits, it wouldn't be hard to find a small box rt or rto613, or even a 9513 and put behind it. Cut a hole in the floor, maybe a support bracket, and get the driveline remade.

I guess more important to me, would be if it is hydraulic brakes, or air brakes. If it was hydraulic, I probably wouldn't be interested.

 

[repowerguy]

If it has a MT 653 or 643 and it is in your price range, shifts up and down smoothly on a test drive and has clean looking ATF in it, you'll never look back. The 653 would be preferable to me because of the low 1st gear.
In the ready mix biz, a good way to ruin a driver is let them drive a truck with a Allison, you'll need a club to make them drive a standard transmission.
Chances are it will be geared fairly low, maybe 65 mph top speed.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I don't think you would find a 500 series behind a 3208.

I did not hate the 3208 much back in the day but nowadays I would be worried about that dinosaur/pig of a motor no matter how few miles.

Around here all fire trucks with these kinds of year/specs were 55.000 mph at governed RPM.

 

[Willie B]

1990 would be toward the last of the 3208's. Naturals could be set from 170 hp to 230, a turbo one will be 230 or 250. I used to have 2 in my 25 ton grove cranes, I've since changed them to 8.3 cummins.

3208's start really easy in cold weather. I had better luck with the natural I had than the turbo, but the two cranes they were installed in were both right around 50,000lbs, which is really too much for a 3208. I would get around 4-6 years out of them in that application. If you're just making a small box dump out of it, you should be fine, its just not a 425hp 3406.

If the automatic gives you fits, it wouldn't be hard to find a small box rt or rto613, or even a 9513 and put behind it. Cut a hole in the floor, maybe a support bracket, and get the driveline remade.

I guess more important to me, would be if it is hydraulic brakes, or air brakes. If it was hydraulic, I probably wouldn't be interested.

It has air brakes, It is labeled 250 HP. I have to think a 10.4 litre will have adequate torque. This won't be an oval track racer, but I'd hope to avoid 20 cars behind me as I climb each hill.

Could a governor be overrided? Could the engine be turned up?

 

[crane operator]

It has air brakes, It is labeled 250 HP. I have to think a 10.4 litre will have adequate torque. This won't be an oval track racer, but I'd hope to avoid 20 cars behind me as I climb each hill.

Could a governor be overrided? Could the engine be turned up?

There are different rpm settings, but its just changing where the stop lever is at on the throttle linkage, there's nothing different in the motors. If I remember right, they came as 2600, 2800 or 3000 rpm settings. It's not a stout motor for like adding big injectors or anything.

What's your gross weight now with the dozer loaded up- probably not over 30,000lbs are you? Truck and dozer together?

That's great that its air brakes, and you'd also have air if you went to a manual. The manual trans would deal better with sitting around, if you don't use it all the time. Plus 9 or 13 speeds in the hills of VT is much nicer than a 4 or 5 speed allison. I wouldn't swap until the allison gave you trouble, then decide if you wanted to change or rebuild the allison.

The 3208 would be much better on fuel than the 427 gas, and you probably won't care if it only goes 55.

I did not hate the 3208 much back in the day but nowadays I would be worried about that dinosaur/pig of a motor no matter how few miles.

I actually didn't mind mine so bad, its just I was asking too much out of them. The turbo motors are quieter than the natural's, but both were smooth running motors.

I'd take the 3208 any day over the later 3176 and 3126's. Those later ones are expensive to work on and much less reliable. Plus you have to have a cat man close by to hook his computer to it, which is also really expensive.

 

[RZucker]

I don't think you would find a 500 series behind a 3208.

I did not hate the 3208 much back in the day but nowadays I would be worried about that dinosaur/pig of a motor no matter how few miles.

Around here all fire trucks with these kinds of year/specs were 55.000 mph at governed RPM.

I used to maintain a fleet of 20 IH S-1850 trucks with 545 Aliisons behind 210 HP 3208's pulling single axle semi trailers. the engines weren't much trouble, but I got good at rebuilding 545's.

 

[Birken Vogt]

It has air brakes, It is labeled 250 HP. I have to think a 10.4 litre will have adequate torque. This won't be an oval track racer, but I'd hope to avoid 20 cars behind me as I climb each hill.

It is amazing how slow these motors are for how big they are. Take my word for it, it will be slow. But it will get the job done. It is not as bad as its 1970s/1980s competitors, the 8.2 Detroit, 9.0 International, some Cummins V8 I have never seen, those were real awful.

Could a governor be overrided? Could the engine be turned up?

250 was pushing it for this engine, you don't want to go there. A truck that old, just use it a little while to make money to buy a truck more to your liking, don't try to hot rod a 3208. Also they are not real good on fuel.

I actually didn't mind mine so bad, its just I was asking too much out of them. The turbo motors are quieter than the natural's, but both were smooth running motors.

Smooth and quiet, I wish they still made them like that.

I'd take the 3208 any day over the later 3176 and 3126's. Those later ones are expensive to work on and much less reliable. Plus you have to have a cat man close by to hook his computer to it, which is also really expensive.

The model between the awful electronic ones and the 3208 was the 3116. They have their own set of problems but they strike me as a much more modern engine than the old pig 3208. I don't have much experience with the 3116, kind of skipped over them. In 2018, which would you rather have?

 

[Willie B]

A truck that old, just use it a little while to make money to buy a truck more to your liking,

I'm 61 years old. This is my last truck. I won't use it a lot. I put 2000-3000 miles a year. Truth is I can't get some jobs without a truck, but it won't make money. If the backhoe needs to be somewhere, or if a load of sand is needed, I was always frustrated with haulers who couldn't fit me into their schedule. For me, owning a truck is about convenience, not profit. I can learn of a ditch that needs to be dug 2 hours before completion, transport a machine, leave my son in charge of digging. By the time I've returned with a load of sand, the ditch is ready.

Saving a fortune, and hiring a trucker might take a week, and the sand gets dumped at a time, and place that makes it inconvenient.

I, or a builder I depend on for work buy a machine 100 miles from home, I don't have to beg a trucker, who will do it at his convenience, not mine.

I make no pretence this will make money, except in a very indirect way. It replaces a truck that is less user friendly.

 

[Delmer]

The model between the awful electronic ones and the 3208 was the 3116. They have their own set of problems but they strike me as a much more modern engine than the old pig 3208. I don't have much experience with the 3116, kind of skipped over them. In 2018, which would you rather have?

The 3116 was 170HP and up, 6.6Liters, so not a direct replacement for a 3208. I wouldn't want any electronic engine "sitting around" so your good choices are fairly limited. I'd prefer a "throwaway" parent bore block like either of these, vs a "real diesel" sleeved dt466 or cummins 8.3 with 30 year old O rings between my antifreeze and oil. Really, what are the chances you're going to rebuild something like this anyway?

The 3116 was at least a mechanical fuel system, no heui or common rail, definitely more modern than anything that came before it IMHO. The injectors are similar to the old detroits, but the control rack is more complicated. Hopefully you don't ever have to mess with it, is the best thing you can say about it. I've heard they had a weak bottom end, and they had a terrible reputation in boats, almost 350HP in marine was too much for what it was.

 

[Willie B]

I hear 250 HP printed on the engine tag. I read 245 described as the horsepower on my gas 427 I have now. I've never understood the difference between similarly rated gas and diesel engines. I do know those I've driven were very different horsepower. I estimate torque in my present 7 litre gas engine at 300 foot pounds. I believe the 10.4 liter Caterpillar diesel is near 1000 foot pounds.
How these numbers translate to moving a truck, trailer and load down a road, I am not qualified to understand. Clearly, the diesel will need less gear reduction losing less energy in the gear train. Otherwise, how should they compare?

Vermont is hilly moving north and south. moving east and west it's downright mountainous. Towing 10 tons is painfully slow in very low gears with the gas engine both climbing, and descending a mountain. On my twice a year trip hauling blocks for the tractor pull, I weigh 42600 combined.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Power is power but to get full power out of the 427 you have to have it wound up almost 4000 RPM I think. If you drive it in a reasonable range it will have much less power. The 3208 also feels more powerful because it has a high torque rise. The lower the RPM the more fuel the pump gives it which keeps the go-forward relatively constant.

Torque spec I just found for the 250 model shows 640 @ 1400 which I find more reasonable than 1000.

 

[RZucker]

I hear 250 HP printed on the engine tag. I read 245 described as the horsepower on my gas 427 I have now. I've never understood the difference between similarly rated gas and diesel engines. I do know those I've driven were very different horsepower. I estimate torque in my present 7 litre gas engine at 300 foot pounds. I believe the 10.4 liter Caterpillar diesel is near 1000 foot pounds.
How these numbers translate to moving a truck, trailer and load down a road, I am not qualified to understand. Clearly, the diesel will need less gear reduction losing less energy in the gear train. Otherwise, how should they compare?

Vermont is hilly moving north and south. moving east and west it's downright mountainous. Towing 10 tons is painfully slow in very low gears with the gas engine both climbing, and descending a mountain. On my twice a year trip hauling blocks for the tractor pull, I weigh 42600 combined.

I hear 250 HP printed on the engine tag. I read 245 described as the horsepower on my gas 427 I have now. I've never understood the difference between similarly rated gas and diesel engines. I do know those I've driven were very different horsepower. I estimate torque in my present 7 litre gas engine at 300 foot pounds. I believe the 10.4 liter Caterpillar diesel is near 1000 foot pounds.
How these numbers translate to moving a truck, trailer and load down a road, I am not qualified to understand. Clearly, the diesel will need less gear reduction losing less energy in the gear train. Otherwise, how should they compare?

Vermont is hilly moving north and south. moving east and west it's downright mountainous. Towing 10 tons is painfully slow in very low gears with the gas engine both climbing, and descending a mountain. On my twice a year trip hauling blocks for the tractor pull, I weigh 42600 combined.

If this new truck has a good Allison 600 series, you can still manually shift it down as needed for compression braking. You will find out the auto is not a bad choice when you get some experience with it. They are long gone now, but I knew of a fleet of harvest trucks that had 6V-53 Detroits and Allison 653's running at 52K gross with actual Jacobs engine brakes. The combo worked pretty well if the drivers understood how it all worked.

 

[Willie B]

Power is power but to get full power out of the 427 you have to have it wound up almost 4000 RPM I think. If you drive it in a reasonable range it will have much less power. The 3208 also feels more powerful because it has a high torque rise. The lower the RPM the more fuel the pump gives it which keeps the go-forward relatively constant.

Torque spec I just found for the 250 model shows 640 @ 1400 which I find more reasonable than 1000.

1000 was a number somebody gave me from estimate. And yes the engine is near 4000 RPM climbing a hill. I shift down as speed lugs down to 3000. Below 3000 the sudden loss of power is pronounced. It runs about 50 MPH on level ground at 3000. The slightest hill loaded will require downshift, and more than 3000 to maintain speed.

 

[Birken Vogt]

They had nice operating characteristics for the day, power peak at 2600, torque down to 1400, that is a lot of operating range.

One other thing to consider is that no exhaust brake is allowed. So without a transmission retarder you are kind of out of luck. You can downshift but all it does is make a little more noise.

 

[Willie B]

I imagined this big displacement diesel would be much more capable of engine braking on long hill descents than a gas 427. I know there is no Jake brake, but it weighs loaded 28000, not 80,000. Will the transmission downshifted be as capable as a manual once manually downshifted? I'd hate to have only the air brakes.

 

[Willie B]

There are different rpm settings, but its just changing where the stop lever is at on the throttle linkage, there's nothing different in the motors. If I remember right, they came as 2600, 2800 or 3000 rpm settings. It's not a stout motor for like adding big injectors or anything.

What's your gross weight now with the dozer loaded up- probably not over 30,000lbs are you? Truck and dozer together?

That's great that its air brakes, and you'd also have air if you went to a manual. The manual trans would deal better with sitting around, if you don't use it all the time. Plus 9 or 13 speeds in the hills of VT is much nicer than a 4 or 5 speed allison. I wouldn't swap until the allison gave you trouble, then decide if you wanted to change or rebuild the allison.

The 3208 would be much better on fuel than the 427 gas, and you probably won't care if it only goes 55.



I actually didn't mind mine so bad, its just I was asking too much out of them. The turbo motors are quieter than the natural's, but both were smooth running motors.

I'd take the 3208 any day over the later 3176 and 3126's. Those later ones are expensive to work on and much less reliable. Plus you have to have a cat man close by to hook his computer to it, which is also really expensive.

I'll get flamed for admitting this: I prefer an automatic in a pickup, or my everyday van. I'm less busy when driving. I can then better pay attention to driving. After years of driving it, I'm now able to smoothly upshift split shifting through all ten gears. I use all ten when downshifting for hills, but slowing for an intersection quickly there just isn't time. I do that as a five speed.
I am a bit concerned as the only automatic medium duty I've ever driven was a rented moving van. It was awful! a complete dog!