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Any curb and gutter / concrete guys here? I really need an opinon on something.

Andy1845c

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
249
Location
Southern Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
I could really use an ear and or professional opinions thismorning...

I am building a new house. The road that the driveway connects to is curb and gutter, even though its out of city limits. There is abot of watershed on it.

I applied for an access permit and it took the county engineer 3 months to get to it, putting me behind schedule because I needed this approved to get a building permit. The whole time I was plesent and understanding and never demanded anything.

I asked if the curb part that sticks up from the road could simply be cut with a concrete saw to match other driveway approches on the road and then simply have a cement apron poured behind it. At first he was open to the idea, then said nobody would do that and that it was easier to just re-pour everything. I didn't protest, but let him do it how he wanted.

Then he decided to hire a local contractor to do the work, and said he would have the county laborers remove the old curb because it would be cheaper to do it that way. I told him they could leave the old curb on my land and I would just use it in my driveway base. He said they wouldn't do that because something about cement fill and watershed? Is there such a thing? I didn't argue about that either. I was just trying to make their job easier and I needed fill for a muddy spot anyway.

They came out with a concrete saw and cut the curb on both ends, and also cut about 3 inches of the asphalt pavment in front of the curb.

I called the county road engineer back to find out why cutting the road was needed. He said that it "made it easier" to remove the old curb and it wasn't a big deal, they would just come fill it back in. It took them 3 weeks to come back to fill it in, and put me farther behind as I was worried the road would collapse if I drove trucks across the gap.

I got my bill yesterday and they want me to pay almost $800 to "patch bituminous in front of driveway". I was not happy. So I called thismorning and of course hes out of the office until the middle of next week.

They had about the biggest tractor backhoe you can get to remove the curb. Is there any reason somebody here can give me as to why the road had to be damaged like that? Why couldn't the cement have been sawed where it met the asphalt pavement and then into sections and then pulled out with the backhoe?

Couldn't the cement then have just been poured upto the road? Seeing you would have a smooth serface where the cut was made?

I am waiting for a call back from the contractor that did the work. I want to ask him all this too. I can't imagine if they had hired him to do the removal he would have wrecked the road because that would have just ment another trip out for him to patch blacktop.

I am just hoping some of the guys here can chime in on how they do curb repair.

Thanks.
 

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HLNTOIZ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
48
Location
NW, CT
Sounds like you got your hands full. Dealing with City/State guys is never fun. They can't make up thier minds on things and almost always make the projects more difficult than they have to be.

I am sure there will be someone from MN that can answer your questions. I in many instances have just gone about it my way. Sometime asking to many questions opens up pandoras box. JMO
 

acasey1433

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
10
Location
Dayton, ohio
you have to cut the blacktop out to remove the curb the curb sits under then asphalt. here in ohio we have to make the curb 14" thick.
 

Andy1845c

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Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
249
Location
Southern Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
Interesting point, acasey. I wish I would have looked closer when the curb was out, bit I think the asphalt just butts up to the cement. The new cement they poured just butts up. There is no asphalt ontop of it.

They charged me $900 to cut and remove the curb.

The contractor got $1700 to pour the new cement (cement cost included) and he was out 2 days working on it.

And $800 to fill the gap back in with asphalt. The county did this as far as I know.

I don't see how stuffing a few wheelbarrows of asphalt down that crack can cost half as much as all that cement and labor.

And $800 to remove the old curb? Even that seems a little steep. If I had a contractor come out just to do that maybe they would need $800 in order to make a profit, but seeing this is county labor, I feel I should just be paying cost.

Keep in mind this is all for a new home and I will be paying taxes to the county for the rest of my life anyway. I feel they should welcome me a little more.
Anyone else out there have an opinion?
 

special tool

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
878
Location
Bethel, Ct.
Interesting point, acasey. I wish I would have looked closer when the curb was out, bit I think the asphalt just butts up to the cement. The new cement they poured just butts up. There is no asphalt ontop of it.

They charged me $900 to cut and remove the curb.

The contractor got $1700 to pour the new cement (cement cost included) and he was out 2 days working on it.

And $800 to fill the gap back in with asphalt. The county did this as far as I know.

I don't see how stuffing a few wheelbarrows of asphalt down that crack can cost half as much as all that cement and labor.

And $800 to remove the old curb? Even that seems a little steep. If I had a contractor come out just to do that maybe they would need $800 in order to make a profit, but seeing this is county labor, I feel I should just be paying cost.

Keep in mind this is all for a new home and I will be paying taxes to the county for the rest of my life anyway. I feel they should welcome me a little more.
Anyone else out there have an opinion?


I think you are missing acasey's point.
He means the curbs are 14 inches TALL.
I have to make them 18 inches here.
Because of friction, you will NEVER remove that curb without damaging the asphalt (because it is weaker) - and it will rip out in a jagged, broken pattern that would have cost you THOUSANDS to fix.
That picture looks like everyone involved did an extremely efficient and proffesional job - and your expenses are not out of line.

And I was just cutting curbing and installing catch basin sumps and tops about an hour and a half ago, as a matter of fact.;)
 

grandpa

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
1,979
Location
northern minnesota
Andy.... if its any consolation ive never saw a curb setting under the blacktop. Up here u saw out the curb and just lift it out. Have even taken them out from seam to seam to avoid cutting..Then repour the curb as needed. Mndot spec is B12 you should be able look that spec up in mndot spec book. In my opinion you were screwed unless they build em different there than mndot. Every engineer has his own way of doing things if the county/city doesnt have written specs. Id call your county commissioner and complain. 1 about the time they took to get it done and 2 find out if there was blacktop on top of the curb. Make sure you find the commis that represent you..... keep us posted on this. Oh and no they cant pour the cement the 3 inches out into the road cause it would screw the milling process up in the future when it comes time to resurface the road.
 
Last edited:

Andy1845c

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Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
249
Location
Southern Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
I may be ignorent. I have never done this type or work, so I appreciate the input.

I just do not understand why the seam between the asphalt and concrete cannot be sawed to ensure clean seperation, and then using the backhoe, dig out the soil behind the curb and lift it out and away from the road surface.

The other thing that really burns me is they never mentioned any of this asphalt repair when they told me what the cost would be. They were not upfront about it. They just sent me a bill for it. They told me several times this would cost around $2500 with county labor and contractor work. Thats what I bugeted for. Now all the sudden I owe almost $1000 over that.

I think the privet contractors did a great gob. The work looks fine. But its sad they did the most work and get the least money.

special tool, if you do this kind of work, you must do the asphalt patching too? Would you charge $755.00 to fill a 4" x 30' by 10" deep space? Or would you have to charge more to make money and make it worth your time? This is really the issue I have with the bill. Even if it was 100% necessary to cut the road, the amount seems outrageous, especially from the county.
 

grandpa

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
1,979
Location
northern minnesota
Any contractor in your area will have one and im sure would let you look at it. Ive removed hundreds of feet of em and never had a problem...... just cant have your head up someplace when doing it. Should have got a permit and got your own contractor.
 

CM1995

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Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
13,375
Location
Alabama
Occupation
Running what I brung and taking what I win
After all the trouble you have been through on this, they still peeled a little of the asphalt past the saw cut. Right in front of the barricade in the pic.:rolleyes:
 

special tool

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
878
Location
Bethel, Ct.
After all the trouble you have been through on this, they still peeled a little of the asphalt past the saw cut. Right in front of the barricade in the pic.:rolleyes:

Well - c'mon - that could have broken/cracked/weakened before and you can't expect them to be responsible for for the original paver's work.


Andy - that $755 is probably some kind of minimum for 2 men, a lowboy and 1 ton of mix.
These are town guys, remember - they are going to sit there and eat for an hour, contemplate work for an hour then work. The town has to pay them for this time.
I really think you are feeling cheated, but don't take it personally.
I would not have charged $800 for that though, no.
I would have found a way to do it on the way home and charged maybe $300.
 

DigDug

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
577
Location
Maine
Andy cutting that concrete 14" thick the width of the driveway would have cost more than the hot top patch in my opinion.
Looks to me like you got a very good job and the price is on target . Just my opinion. Good luck with your project.
 

backhoe1

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Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
93
Location
South Dakota
I have removed curb before that lifted right out, but other times it binds on the asphalt and rips it to heck. the idea of saw cutting would work, but the bottom half of curbs around here are 6" and a standard concrete saw only cuts about 4.5" . I hope this makes it clearer. The only thing that seemed odd to me is that the county is involved in the middle, around here you would just hire a contractor to do the job.
 

Andy1845c

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Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
249
Location
Southern Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
Thanks for the replys.

I think part of the problem here is the county highway engineer does not seem to know what he is doing. In our first conversation I was told I could not do any work myself or select a contractor myself and that there work had to be done EXACTLY to their standards. Thats why I couldn't get a permit and hire it done myself, do some of it myself, ect. Believe me, I would have broke it up with a 10 pound hammer and a shovel myself before I paid all that money.

He told me one time I talked to him that he spent a whole day calling other citys and countys to see how they would handle this. That alone made me angry as it does not seem to be a complex task. He seems to want to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Its not really rocket science is it? Isn't it a routine thing in the contracting world? :beatsme
 

grandpa

Senior Member
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Oct 15, 2009
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1,979
Location
northern minnesota
well lets put it this way..... if nobody removed curbs we could only put new driveways in when they rebuilt the roadway . Must be a young engineer and dont want to make a mistake. Id still talk to your commissioner, thats the way the world works...good luck.
 

Kgmz

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Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
308
Location
Portland, OR & Eatonville, WA
Occupation
General Contractor
Around here you have to have a special license and post a bond to do curb and gutter, and city sidewalk work. Besides having your normal contractors license.

And around here it is required to cut the pavement back from where you are replacing the curb. The reason for this is sometimes not always there is concrete that flows out from under the form boards, sometimes more than a few inches. You try and lift the curb out without cutting the pavement and it has this finger out under the pavement and you know what will happen.

I got this license back when I was building a lot of homes in the city limits. I didn't like the prices they were charging for it, and I had a very good concrete guy on the payroll that used to do this. So got the license and bond and did all our own stuff, and ended up doing a lot more for others.

But they allowed us to do our own patching of the pavement. They came and inspected it and we never had a problem.
 

Andy1845c

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Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
249
Location
Southern Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
Hey guys. Thank you all for the help. I spoke to the contractor that did the work and he felt that there was no need to cut the asphalt and that the county workers had done a hap hazard job removing the curb.

I then spoke to the county public works director and was able to convince him to drop $500 from the bill.

So, not a great ending, but better then it could have been.

-Andy
 
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