Antique dozer controls

[newdanr]

Hi HEF! I was thinking the other day about old dozers, and I have some questions about operator controls.

Can those with more gray hairs than me, or some seat time on an old dozer, please respond with some info, and let me know what brands have specific or unconventional controls.

Prior to powershift and hydrostatic models, I'm assuming that a dozer had a clutch and a gearshift. Were the shifters typically between your feet? Or on a side console?
Were steering clutches and brakes on a two-stage stick? (ie, pull half way back to disengage the clutch on one side, pull all the way back to engage the brake). Or were brakes always separate pedals?
Also - when using a cable-operated blade, was the winch powered when lowering the blade? Or was it just gravity drop?

Thanks in advance. Closing on 50 yrs old, but have yet to have seat time on a dozer. Someday...

danr

 

[RZucker]

Hi HEF! I was thinking the other day about old dozers, and I have some questions about operator controls.

Can those with more gray hairs than me, or some seat time on an old dozer, please respond with some info, and let me know what brands have specific or unconventional controls.

Before the powershift, Yes most dozers had a master flywheel clutch,

Prior to powershift and hydrostatic models, I'm assuming that a dozer had a clutch and a gearshift. Were the shifters typically between your feet? Or on a side console?
Were steering clutches and brakes on a two-stage stick? (ie, pull half way back to disengage the clutch on one side, pull all the way back to engage the brake). Or were brakes always separate pedals?
Also - when using a cable-operated blade, was the winch powered when lowering the blade? Or was it just gravity drop?

Thanks in advance. Closing on 50 yrs old, but have yet to have seat time on a dozer. Someday...

danr

Yes, prior to powershifts a dozer had a master flywheel clutch. the shifter location depended on the size of the machine, D8 and D9's had the controls off to the RH side, Smaller machines had them between your knees. Most older machines had separate clutch/brake functions for steering. And the Cable units were power up and free drop with a brake to control drop speed.

 

[DMiller]

On those that had them some came with a Torque converter between the engine and master clutch to give a little when shifted or idled down. Most of the old beasts I worked were hand clutch lever usually Right side, shifter roughly at between the knees, the hydraulic or cable controls also to the right side but more back or directly off to the side, throttle was always in the wrong place for ease of access or use, hand lever clutches for steer and pedal brakes for steer assist or stopping. A wad of a handful with reaching, stretching, bending forward or back all day.

 

[RZucker]

On those that had them some came with a Torque converter between the engine and master clutch to give a little when shifted or idled down. Most of the old beasts I worked were hand clutch lever usually Right side, shifter roughly at between the knees, the hydraulic or cable controls also to the right side but more back or directly off to the side, throttle was always in the wrong place for ease of access or use, hand lever clutches for steer and pedal brakes for steer assist or stopping. A wad of a handful with reaching, stretching, bending forward or back all day.

That's right, I remember A-C HD 21s with the convertor-clutch setup. Cant remember the exact setup in the 19A series Cat D9D's, but the convertor was diesel filled, couple old timers told me they really had a stink when you worked them hard. Every 19A I ever worked on had been changed to an 18A wet clutch and a 5speed trans, was the diesel convertor that bad? I've seen 3 of them over the years, still had the extra cooler on the engine but blocked off.
And I do remember the sore right shoulder from running the old Cat cable controls. Always too high and too far away.

 

[rayman]

1st gen TD24 had a left foot master clutch as did the pommie "Vickers Vigor" or "VR180" as it became they also had a 5speed stick shift, you drove them like a truck, in fact it was a "Turner" truck gearbox. Massey-Ferguson had pedal-steer long before ole ma cat put them in the cat loaders, They both were half down, disengage clutch-full down engage brake. I once owned a Cat 933-G tractor shovel, it had --left hand master clutch-left steering clutch- center gear shift- right steering clutch, then on the right side frame was the bucket raise/fall-bucket tilt-then bucket floor open that was seven handles and to be at all proficient you needed to use them all too when loading out

 

[ol'stonebreaker]

The D-8 14A's I ran had the main clutch lever on the left side of the seat and the seat was to the left side of the machine. Had two steering clutch handles up out of the deck in front of the seat and two steering brake pedals up out of the deck forward of the steering clutch handles. When I was a kid just starting the old timers called pulling the steering handle back just enough to make it turn slightly "cracking a friction". There was a decelerator pedal to the right of the brake pedals. This was used to idle the engine down by pushing on it to change gears or direction. When you let off it the engine then returned to whatever RPM the throttle was set at and the throttle lever was on the right rear side of the engine cowling. I may be wrong the throttle location, it might have been on the right side of the seat. Memory's a little fuzzy on that. The shift levers were on the right side of the seat. One was the tranny shifter for 5 speeds and the other was the Johnson bar to select either forward or reverse in any gear. (I'll let you know the Johnson's name derived from the reversing lever on a steam locomotive.) The cable dozer control lever was to your right and slightly above shoulder height and it controlled a dry/brake clutch winch system. You pushed it away to drop the dozer and pulled it toward you to lift it. As already said gravity lowered the dozer. A good unit mechanic could set the winch clutch and brake so you could tap the handle and the dozer would drop 1/2". When things needed adjusting it might drop the 1/2" or maybe a foot. Tilt was adjusted by hand turning turnbuckles on the braces on each push arm. Angle of attack was adjusted by turning the turn buckles equal turns forward or back.
They were wonderful machines to feed a crusher out of a gravel bank with. Once the tilt was set right according to whether you were cutting the bank on your left or right all your had to do was load up the U-dozer, pop a little slack in the cable and take a nap on the way to the feeder. Working in shot rock was a challenge to say the least!!
On final thing. You didn't want to stall the engine because then you were out on the left track using the pony motor to restart it!! The first thing you were told was never leave it idling with the clutch disengaged. ALWAYS put the tranny in neutral and engage the clutch else the pilot bearing would wear out prematurely. The main clutch was equipped with a clutch brake and by pushing forward on the clutch handle with the engine at IDLE it would stop the tranny from turning so you could get it in gear. A lot of guys burned up the clutch brake by not using the decelerator. The engine had a reversible fan you changed by hand. In cold weather you put canvas curtains along each side of the engine to direct warm air back on you and also eat lots of dust. You must know these old cats only had a ROPS so whatever the weather you got to enjoy it, LOL!! In warm weather you reversed the fan pitch to blow the warm air out front.
Maybe some more old gray hairs have something to add. This post has brought back a lot of memories for me.
Mike

 

[John C.]

I broke in on 14A and 13A D8 and 17A D7. There was no decel pedal on any of those machines. You left the engine at high idle all the time when running and learned to feather the master clutch in. When the mornings were cold those machines were stiff. The cold oil in the master clutch would keep it turning even when the clutch brake was working right. The 14A machines had hydraulic boosters for the steering clutches so it didn't take much arm strength to steer the machines. The 13A machine didn't have a booster so it was like lifting weights all day long. The 17A had a separate booster that leaked and you had to keep filling it with oil. We had front winches and rear double drum winches. Those machines were for pulling scrapers and were modified with a pipe up the right side of the machine to hide the wire rope. Raising the blade meant pulling the long lever or your right, that was at about ear level, toward you. Now the trick that people today don't know about is that you needed to snap that lever into engagement so the clutches didn't slip. Once they got to slipping they glazed or burned and you had half a day of changing frictions and plates. Adjustments on them was pure genius. There were marks on the linkage inside the winch for the clutches. You matched the marks or on some, matched some holes so you could run a wire through, and the clutch was adjusted properly. Then you adjusted the brakes for feel. The key to blade control for me was getting the brakes just right. You could make that blade slide down a quarter inch at a time if you wanted. The 14A machines with the rear double drums had a live drive to the winch. On the 13A the winch drive only worked when the master clutch was engaged. That might sound like not a big deal but it meant that the blade could not be moved when the machine was stopped unless the master was in. I ran another machine one time that didn't have a Johnson bar. A single shift lever had eight or so slots with two for reverse that you had to find each time you wanted to change direction. The slang name for that shift set up is lost somewhere in the deep creases of my brain now but someone here may remember it.

There was some prestige for the operators back in that time frame. They all had to lubricate their aching joints and smooth over the sore muscles at the end of the day with plenty of tall bottle medicine. I only had to fill in on those machines once in awhile and it made me understand just how tough that generation really was.

 

[td14steve]

Now let me see.. I don't have the TD 14 any more but IH had its own ideas on starting a diesel engine. The 14 had a gas start system that you switched over to diesel when it warmed up. If I remember correctly I would always keep both fuel tanks shut off so around the back and open up the diesel tank then over on the left side under the hood was a small tank that held a gallon or so of gas. On with that also. up on the dash there was a diesel throttle and another lever that you pushed down or up I forget to open up the starting valves and switch on the magneto.
These machines had a complicated system where there was an extra set of valves in the head that when the lever was moved to the start position it opened these valves and exposed a chamber with spark plugs. So now she;s ready to start. pull the choke hit the starter and usually it would bang off. there was no throttle when it was in gas mode. after running for a few minutes you would simultaneously close the starting valve lever and open the diesel throttle and it would switch over to diesel. A far cry from the modern world of a few seconds on the heaters and away they go. This process could take 15 seconds or 1/2 an hour depending on how ornery the machine was feeling that day. worse thing was stalling the engine and maybe only have enough gas to run it in start mode for a few seconds. Many a time I got it barely running on gas and popped it over to diesel and it would bang right away.
The dozer controls were pretty straight forward master clutch on the left, blade on the right. Left and right clutch levers coming off the floor , Shifter in the middle I think . left and right brakes. It was actually a comfortable machine to run all day . Seat was big the brake pedals could be adjusted a few inches and tipped. The biggest pain was getting on and off the machine as it had the outside mounted hydraulics and you had to clamber in and out. Anyway that's another one there. I always enjoyed running the old machines I ran a 17a D7 for a guy one year too always thought they were a nicely balanced machine plenty of grunt I never minded all the reaching around for levers . Steve

 

[RZucker]

Now let me see.. I don't have the TD 14 any more but IH had its own ideas on starting a diesel engine. The 14 had a gas start system that you switched over to diesel when it warmed up. If I remember correctly I would always keep both fuel tanks shut off so around the back and open up the diesel tank then over on the left side under the hood was a small tank that held a gallon or so of gas. On with that also. up on the dash there was a diesel throttle and another lever that you pushed down or up I forget to open up the starting valves and switch on the magneto.
These machines had a complicated system where there was an extra set of valves in the head that when the lever was moved to the start position it opened these valves and exposed a chamber with spark plugs. So now she;s ready to start. pull the choke hit the starter and usually it would bang off. there was no throttle when it was in gas mode. after running for a few minutes you would simultaneously close the starting valve lever and open the diesel throttle and it would switch over to diesel. A far cry from the modern world of a few seconds on the heaters and away they go. This process could take 15 seconds or 1/2 an hour depending on how ornery the machine was feeling that day. worse thing was stalling the engine and maybe only have enough gas to run it in start mode for a few seconds. Many a time I got it barely running on gas and popped it over to diesel and it would bang right away.
The dozer controls were pretty straight forward master clutch on the left, blade on the right. Left and right clutch levers coming off the floor , Shifter in the middle I think . left and right brakes. It was actually a comfortable machine to run all day . Seat was big the brake pedals could be adjusted a few inches and tipped. The biggest pain was getting on and off the machine as it had the outside mounted hydraulics and you had to clamber in and out. Anyway that's another one there. I always enjoyed running the old machines I ran a 17a D7 for a guy one year too always thought they were a nicely balanced machine plenty of grunt I never minded all the reaching around for levers . Steve

In the 70's and early 80's I played with some old TD-18s and had no problems restarting in diesel mode on a hot engine, Maybe 18's had a better starter?

 

[Wes J]

When I was a kid my dad bought a TD-9 to build a pond at our house. He always said it was like driving a piece of full body workout equipment. He spend a whole summer building that pond and was in the best shape of his life. I wouldn't tangle with a guy who spent any time running one of those machines.

 

[td14steve]

I think the old 14 was just getting old it was a 1948. After a tune u it wasn't to bad just a process to start is all.

 

[sled dog]

I broke in on 14A and 13A D8 and 17A D7. There was no decel pedal on any of those machines. You left the engine at high idle all the time when running and learned to feather the master clutch in. When the mornings were cold those machines were stiff. The cold oil in the master clutch would keep it turning even when the clutch brake was working right. The 14A machines had hydraulic boosters for the steering clutches so it didn't take much arm strength to steer the machines. The 13A machine didn't have a booster so it was like lifting weights all day long. The 17A had a separate booster that leaked and you had to keep filling it with oil. We had front winches and rear double drum winches. Those machines were for pulling scrapers and were modified with a pipe up the right side of the machine to hide the wire rope. Raising the blade meant pulling the long lever or your right, that was at about ear level, toward you. Now the trick that people today don't know about is that you needed to snap that lever into engagement so the clutches didn't slip. Once they got to slipping they glazed or burned and you had half a day of changing frictions and plates. Adjustments on them was pure genius. There were marks on the linkage inside the winch for the clutches. You matched the marks or on some, matched some holes so you could run a wire through, and the clutch was adjusted properly. Then you adjusted the brakes for feel. The key to blade control for me was getting the brakes just right. You could make that blade slide down a quarter inch at a time if you wanted. The 14A machines with the rear double drums had a live drive to the winch. On the 13A the winch drive only worked when the master clutch was engaged. That might sound like not a big deal but it meant that the blade could not be moved when the machine was stopped unless the master was in. I ran another machine one time that didn't have a Johnson bar. A single shift lever had eight or so slots with two for reverse that you had to find each time you wanted to change direction. The slang name for that shift set up is lost somewhere in the deep creases of my brain now but someone here may remember it.

There was some prestige for the operators back in that time frame. They all had to lubricate their aching joints and smooth over the sore muscles at the end of the day with plenty of tall bottle medicine. I only had to fill in on those machines once in awhile and it made me understand just how tough that generation really was.

John, would that slang term you were searching for be "Slide Bar" ?

 

[TomA]

John, would that slang term you were searching for be "Slide Bar" ?

My old 1H D8 has the slide bar transmission. 2nd gear is on the far right back. Directly forward is fast reverse, low reverse is right next to it. It works similar to a Johnson bar. Bad if you need 1st gear, it is all the way on the left, takes a little wiggling to get there if the bar is not freshly oiled.

 

[John C.]

The term sounds right and works for me but I can't remember for sure.

 

[Wes J]

There were a lot of hybrid systems before power shift really took off. Deere had reversers or shuttle clutches like a backhoe. You had F, N, R and used that as the main clutch. Then some of them had F high, F low, N, R low, R high shuttles. That was combined with 4 gears to give 8 ratios.