Another LB75 starter issue

[DoubleK]

It's possible that someone else may have posted this problem. If so, please forgive me and direct me there and I'll read. If not, here goes:
2003 NH LB75B, 5200 hours.
Problem: Starter turns engine over only a 1/4 of a turn and then goes click click, as if the batteries are dead.
Additional info: Dual batteries, both fully charged, at least 600 CCA each.
Cables: Removed and tested. All checked out fine.
Starter: Original was removed and rebuilt 18 months prior. New starter was installed.
Testing: 12 gauge wire was run from positive of second battery in line to positive post on starter. Starting attempt produced no temperature change of smaller wire. Wire was then run from the ground post to the starter ground with the same results.
Ground lockout was bypassed.
Additional ground strap was added to starter mounting bolt to ground block connected to cable from ground lockout.
All mounting posts/bolts and cable ends were wire brushed.
Heavy duty battery charger connected to batteries and set to 'boost'.
Heavy duty jumper cables run from my running, dual battery, diesel truck and attached to actual starter post and ground cable attached to the grounding strap, and to the alternator bolt.
Relays next to ignition switch were removed, cleaned and reinstalled.
One relay was found in engine compartment on firewall. It was removed, cleaned and reinstalled.
Wire to intake preheat was removed, no change, so reconnected.
Air temp is low to mid 30's F.
Engine oil has approx 40 hours on it.
So, engine turns over like it's a dead battery(s) or bad cables. All have been tested. Bad starter?, replaced. Jumped from running truck. Ground cable added. NO CHANGE!
Each of the items above were done separately, starting was attempted, and then each was returned to original setup.
Any ideas, or am I at the unhappy point of paying $120/hour for local shop to come out and do the exact same stuff I did to locate the problem?

 

[DoubleK]

Just as an addendum, the cables were tested for resistance at the shop that rebuilds starters. One end of the positive had evidence of getting rather hot as the plastic coating was melted, date unknown. The end was cut off and a new end soldered on. All battery posts were cleaned, as were the battery connectors. The hardest part to understand is that even if the cable(s) were bad, jumping from the truck should have spun the starter easily. It didn't. Also, attaching a 12 gauge wire to the pos. post and then to the starter should have gotten a hot wire if the pos. cable was bad; same for the neg.
I'm stumped...

 

[Bluox]

Starter switch or solenoid contacts bad.
Bob

 

[DoubleK]

Starter switch or solenoid contacts bad.
Bob

Starter switch is on my list of possibles. The key being used is actually from a Yamaha, not a NH. It has started the unit in the past, but never well. The unit has had this same problem to a lessor degree since I bought it 2 years ago. It wasn't until a month ago that it became impossible to start.

I will look into a new switch. I don't consider that throwing money away. It is still cheaper than a service call.

The solenoid you refer to is the one on the starter, correct? If so, the previous starter was checked, including the solenoid. It all tested fine. A new starter, with solenoid, was installed, with no improvements.

 

[Bluox]

Take a jumper wire from battery post to start switch post on solenoid and see what happens, make sure tractor is in neutral.
Bob

 

[DoubleK]

Would that be like a 2/0 cable, the same thickness as the original, or something smaller like 10 or 12 gauge? If it is to be the 2/0, is there someone who sells the replacement cables for this unit? There is a local shop that can make up a cable for me if I can't buy one straight out.
The tractor is located on the farm 25 miles away, so I try to have a few things to try whenever I head out there! I read somewhere that the CNH ignition switches were weak links in the system. Does anyone know if that's the same for these units and therefore a new switch would be a good idea?

Thanks for your input!

 

[Bluox]

A piece of 14 or 12 10' long with a roach clip on both ends. One end clipped on battery the other touched on the small wire on the solenoid where the start switch wire goes. This will eliminate the whole start switch circuit and check the starter solenoid.Do you own a volt meter?
Bob

 

[Tinkerer]

It may be a defective battery cut off switch.

 

[DoubleK]

Bluox, yes, I own a voltmeter and will see what the readings are static and while trying to start. As of yet, I haven't done that. Is that what you suggest?

Tinkerer, not sure if/where the battery cut off is/would be. It does have a ground cutoff, located on the firewall by the clutch. I have bypassed that in two different ways; putting both ground wires on the same post(one try), and connecting a new ground strap to both posts with cables attached(second try). No luck. Question tho, my positive battery cables run from first battery Positive to second battery Positive (short cable). Then a longer cable runs from second battery Positive to main connector on starter. Branches off from there to alt. and a relay panel by firewall. Considering that, where would they hide the battery cut off? From a lot of the parts diagrams I have gone over, it seems that some machines have a battery cutoff for the positive, and yet others have one for the negative... Just to make it easy for us!

 

[Delmer]

Make up two test leads, can be cheap 18 gauge extension cord wire, anything with a roach clip on one end and something to hook to your multimeter on the other end. just strip the other end and wrap around the probes if nothing else.

First hook to the small wire terminal on the solenoid and ground on the starter, try to start with the key and hold it and see what voltage you get, probably just a jump and then nothing. Next hook to the big cable going into the solenoid, start with key and hold it, probably a tiny drop and then back to 12.xx. Maybe disconnect that small wire and check the voltage without it hooked to the solenoid.

OR, check your voltages on the back of the ignition switch, and bypass it there also to get it to start. Basically you were giving the starter more available power, but the starter won't do anything without that signal from the ignition switch (that also goes through several relays, neutral switches etc.

Bluox is suggesting eliminating all of that by giving the starter solenoid power direct from the battery, the old screwdriver test. Sometimes fatal if the unit is in gear, but very useful here.

 

[fpgm04]

Is it possible that you could be having a strong load on the engine that the starter can’t overcome? Have you checked to see if you have a hydraulic value/lever stuck? For example, I have been called out to vehicles that would not start, only to find the stabilizer valve lever was held open.

 

[Tinkerer]

A clamp-on ammeter will show you if the starter is drawing any and / or how much the current draw is on the battery with starter engaged.

 

[DoubleK]

I will try these tests on Monday and get back to you.

fpgm04, I had wondered the same thing. We used to have a Ford 8N, that if the three point control lever was in the lift position, it would make the battery/starter work harder to turn over engine AND lift the blade on the back. I plan on checking all controls to ensure they are neutrally centered. We do have one stabilizer that has been sticking. I had asked that question to the service tech at the local shop. They stated there was no way any thing like that could put a load on the engine, but they were willing to charge big bucks to come out and look.

Tinkerer, unfortunately, a clamp on ammeter is not one of the tools I own. I will see what I can come up with, tho. I also misspoke before. It is not a clutch but brake pedal(had just got off a green machine, and spent 4 hours before that on an orange one, both with clutches!)

Thank you all for your responses.

 

[DoubleK]

Lessons learned:
Checked position of all controls to make sure they were in neutral position, they were. Even shifted gear selector to neutral, forward and reverse already was in neutral. No change.
Voltmeter registered 12.44 volts at batteries and same at starter. Dropped to 5.4 and continued to drop as key was turned. Attached wire to small screw on starter coming from ignition and other end to positive post on battery. No difference in starting or turning. Removed serpentine belt to make sure all pulleys turned freely: they did. Even tried to turn over with belt removed, no change.
Installed new ignition switch, no change.
Put voltmeter onto starter post to watch when key was turned. It spiked to 11V and dropped rapidly after that.
Figured positive cable was shot... and stopped for lunch. During lunch my 86 year old farmer dad suggested I pull the battery out of the chipper and try it in the backhoe just to see if maybe the batteries were bad, even though they were tested by Napa...
Disconnected both batteries and tried them individually before trying the chipper battery. Nothing from the two. Installed the chipper battery, 550 CCA and the engine turned over better, not great but better. Attached the charger and it fired right up. It fired up every time the six times after that, even without the charger.
So, yep, I should have done some battery swaps in the very beginning, but I was operating on invalid information. Napa employee, who was only a little older than my 17 year old truck, said the batteries were good... and I went from there. Who would have thought that both batteries that were in the machine, and one battery that was on the bench with a battery maintainer attached would all be bad?
However, it's not all wasted time... I cleaned up all the cable connections, removed and replaced one bad cable end. Installed new starter, and now have a backup, (pretty quick at removed and replacing starters now!). Installed new ignition switch with keys that are actually correct for the switch. Inspected all bearings spun by serpentine belt. And the list goes on!
Thank you all again for the suggestions and ideas. Hopefully this can be a 'lessons learned' for the next guy... use a voltmeter! Don't always take 'that guy's' word for something, etc.