Am I out of line?

[Jmiller26b]

I know we can't go into detail but I was hoping for some general thoughts/guidance. Can be vague answers just wanting a ballpark to see if we are way off. My father and I are disagreeing about what to bid a particular job. Any ballpark answer would be helpful. Estimating about 9 hours to do it all. About 4.5 hours with 11k lb mini and about 4.5 hours with 11k lb skid steer. Job description below please. Thanks in advance!

This is kind of a 3 part job. We have to repair a leaking frost free hydrant at the fitting underground right at the base of the hydrant. I will haul in the mini and dug it out, repair the leak and cover it back up. Also will use the mini to locate a fiber optic cable where a new culvert will be put in. The fiber guys will come and do their thing then we will put in the culvert (customer will pay for) and use on site rock to set in place as part of an existing driveway. The rock is like 3+ inches which will have to be dug from an old existing arm of the drive and it is hard packed for sure. We will have to shave down the dirt bank a little leading into the ditch for the culvert with the skid steer. (Approximately a 20'x30' spot which will go from about a 0% grade to a 30% slope down to the road and back up a bit per state department guidelines for so the snow plows don't clip the culvert when they go by.) We have no material expense just labor expenses on this job running the machines. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[terex herder]

Not my area of expertise but a few thoughts. Underground plumbing problems are seldom as easy as thought. Make sure that part is T & M. You mention state guidelines, any inspection required? Are you really planning to dig up a live fiber line with a mini ex without daylighting it first?

 

[Jmiller26b]

Not my area of expertise but a few thoughts. Underground plumbing problems are seldom as easy as thought. Make sure that part is T & M. You mention state guidelines, any inspection required? Are you really planning to dig up a live fiber line with a mini ex without daylighting it first?

Hey Terex Herder thanks for your response! I really appreciate it! On the fiber line are you talking about bringing in a hydro vac system first? Around here nobody offers a service like that or has access to a rental. We always have to blind dig it. They come out and mark the line on the surface but never tell how far down it is. From there we always start digging real slow and do a lot of shovel work until we get to the fiber line then from there we get most of the material out with the mini until we get close and then switch back to a shovel. Then once we have it exposed then another company comes in and cuts and wires it (as in this case we're putting it in conduit under the driveway with connections on each side.) Then after they do their part we can proceed with the driveway.

 

[suladas]

I've never heard of finding a fiber line with a mini, that scares the hell out of me considering how pricey they are! But if you have to, as long as you exposing the area by hand first as you go you'll be fine, I would be figuring half a day with the mini and a laborer just to find the fiber line, i've only done it with gas lines but it takes quite awhile. But there is no way for 2 things like that I would be bidding 9 hours at a machine rate, I would be bidding WAY more. The hydrant fix could take 2 or 3 times as long as you expect it too. Just a ballpark without knowing how bad the job actually is, I would be bidding like $5k + any material or unforeseen. IMO there is no way 4.5 hours with the mini is enough, I bet you will be double that. Also got to figure there likely isn't many guys who would want to repair a hydrant, and big companies would either charge a fortune or not be interested in a small job.

 

[AzIron]

Sounds like more than 9 hrs to me with 2 guys your going to put in at least 8 hrs a piece by the time you haul in and haul our plus if your waiting for another contractor that's another mob and day

 

[hosspuller]

How big is the hydrant ? Fire hose size or garden hose sized ? How deep is the frost line ? One doesn't just cover up a hydrant. You have to provide a drain field for it. Depth of dig is important for working room. One foot deep is arm's length. Any more and you'll need to get into the hole to work the fittings. More digging and back fill. Hydrant repair is a days work alone, if it goes well.

 

[CM1995]

There is no way to accurately give any pricing advice with the description of this job without seeing the site and understanding the local rules and regulations. It's like asking how much does a car cost?

Ballpark from left field - figure $10-15K. The least amount I'll send a crew of 3 and a mini out for a day for work like this is $3K per day. You have 3-5 days in all this at the best case scenario. CYA is my best advice.

 

[Spud_Monkey]

Another Miller from Missouri, you wouldn't happen to be related to DMiller on here would you

 

[JLarson]

I could see doing a frost free yard hydrant in a day mob, demob, with just the mini too.

The other stuff is more complicated, and sounds a bit messy. Glad we don't have to mess with blind digs anymore.

 

[Jmiller26b]

I've never heard of finding a fiber line with a mini, that scares the hell out of me considering how pricey they are! But if you have to, as long as you exposing the area by hand first as you go you'll be fine, I would be figuring half a day with the mini and a laborer just to find the fiber line, i've only done it with gas lines but it takes quite awhile. But there is no way for 2 things like that I would be bidding 9 hours at a machine rate, I would be bidding WAY more. The hydrant fix could take 2 or 3 times as long as you expect it too. Just a ballpark without knowing how bad the job actually is, I would be bidding like $5k + any material or unforeseen. IMO there is no way 4.5 hours with the mini is enough, I bet you will be double that. Also got to figure there likely isn't many guys who would want to repair a hydrant, and big companies would either charge a fortune or not be interested in a small job.

Hey thanks for your response suladas! I greatly appreciate it! Just curious as to how you go about finding a fiber line? And I didn't think about it before but yes it will be a yard hydrant and there is a tee on the bottom running to a dead leaking line so we are just digging at the hydrant replacing the tee with an elbow and leaving the secondary line in the ground.

 

[Jmiller26b]

How big is the hydrant ? Fire hose size or garden hose sized ? How deep is the frost line ? One doesn't just cover up a hydrant. You have to provide a drain field for it. Depth of dig is important for working room. One foot deep is arm's length. Any more and you'll need to get into the hole to work the fittings. More digging and back fill. Hydrant repair is a days work alone, if it goes well.

Hey Hosspuller thanks for your response!!! Yeah I should have said it is a yard hydrant and we can fix it ourselves. There is a tee with a secondary line separate from the supply line and its leaking so were just digging at the hydrant and replacing with an elbow and leaving that secondary line in the ground.

 

[Jmiller26b]

Another Miller from Missouri, you wouldn't happen to be related to DMiller on here would you

Nope I'm actually the only one in Missouri from our family!

 

[Jmiller26b]

I could see doing a frost free yard hydrant in a day mob, demob, with just the mini too.

The other stuff is more complicated, and sounds a bit messy. Glad we don't have to mess with blind digs anymore.

Hey JLarson thanks for the response! Can you elaborate on not having to mess with blind digs anymore? What is your method or is your utility locating people providing some additional service or guidance? Thanks!

 

[suladas]

Hey thanks for your response suladas! I greatly appreciate it! Just curious as to how you go about finding a fiber line? And I didn't think about it before but yes it will be a yard hydrant and there is a tee on the bottom running to a dead leaking line so we are just digging at the hydrant replacing the tee with an elbow and leaving the secondary line in the ground.

Thankfully never found a fibre line yet! But when i've had to run lines past gas lines I will dig down say 18" with the hoe (gas lines are 36" here) then have a guy on a shovel digging across the trench 6" at a time, then clear with hoe down to that height that way hoe will never touch the line, that is assuming you have access to dig along the line. But if there's any chance of using a hydrovac, I would do that instead in a heartbeat, it's fast and way safer.

 

[Jmiller26b]

I do know that being in Missouri we right out of the gate cannot charge what coastal states can get for rates. Also we are not by any large city so there goes being able to charge a higher amount as well. This hydrant dig is super straight forward and shouldn't take any more than a couple hours because the leak is super far away on a secondary line coming off a tee at the hydrant which we will be doing away with and replacing with an elbow and we are doing the work ourselves on the hydrant. So factoring that in I initially said around $1100 for everything and my old man had a meltdown. He thinks I need to charge more like $600. (just labor because customer is paying for material and we are using on site rock). We're going to need both machines which we own but if we had to rent both for 1 day each we would be looking at $500 a piece plus delivery charge and environmental fees and this and that fee.... So if we had to rent both for a day each it would probably be around $1,650 for everything once all charges and delivery was figured in so I thought $1100 was a dang good deal and I feel like its not enough but at the $600 the old man said I feel like I might as well stay home? I know I cannot get the prices some of you guys can just because of location and I know you need to see the job to get a good idea but still because of the large difference I really feel like I am cheating myself. I really appreciate the feedback everyone!!!

 

[Jmiller26b]

Thankfully never found a fibre line yet! But when i've had to run lines past gas lines I will dig down say 18" with the hoe (gas lines are 36" here) then have a guy on a shovel digging across the trench 6" at a time, then clear with hoe down to that height that way hoe will never touch the line, that is assuming you have access to dig along the line. But if there's any chance of using a hydrovac, I would do that instead in a heartbeat, it's fast and way safer.

Oh I gotcha now! That makes perfect sense! And yeah I wish we could use a hydrovac but probably the closest one is 100+ miles away. Thanks suladas! I really appreciate your input!!!

 

[JLarson]

We either have stuff daylighted or occasionally we do it ourselves with a rental unit if needed, if we're on the hook or someone working with/for us is on the hook or a line we want to know where it is, not where the bluestake flunky says it is.

I don't see how you make money at 1100 or worse at 600 a day. Once you figure costs of fuel, maintenance, mob and demob time your labor on the job and the rest of your overhead in.

 

[DMiller]

Can relate to MoDOT inspection once completed as had the two drive entries here inspected after installed for use approval even as were in use. My own was mostly grade work no culvert on House drive but had specifics in the MoDOT permit as to rock type and size for the Barn lot drive. Don't cut costs to the bone as losing money is not a point to working for a living, the property owner would have to pay market pricing or do as is if expense is beyond their capability.

Company I work for had a frost free 'Leak', they are a excavation company so dug it up themselves, was not the FF but a spot in a coupled line some fifteen feet away that followed the line accessing grade around the FF hydrant. Inspect carefully before closing the hole.

 

[Vetech63]

Another Miller from Missouri, you wouldn't happen to be related to DMiller on here would you

OH GOD I HOPE NOT!!! LOL

 

[Old Doug]

Pricing is a real problem. I am in Mo . I needed a tree cut down had to have a bucket truck. I got it done for $350.00 witch i thought was dirty cheap but i also had a bid of $1500.00. I have had some people want me to haul gravel i dont want to get in to that kind of work with my truck but i have done a little. I had a guy ask me why not i told him if i was full time i would know what to charge and if i had a breakdown or tire problem i could spread the cost out over several jobs. Dont ever do a job cheap price cutting hurts every one. If you want to do this work find out what others are charging. Make a money or stay home.