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Advice for welding repair of 4 in 1 bucket

Discussion in 'Tractor/Loader/Backhoes' started by Scout_1969, Jun 18, 2021.

  1. Scout_1969

    Scout_1969 Well-Known Member

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    Have a 310b with 4 in 1 bucket that has broken in one corner and other corner is not far behind. There’s a lot of deterioration and there’s a pocket for moist dirt to rest that doesn’t help. It’s in a pretty high stress area due to the cylinders being mounted there.
    I’m thinking it will need the cracks cleaned and welded. Some plates for reinforcement would be good too but I don’t know if that’s overkill.

    Does this seem right?

    What type of steel for reinforcement is best?

    Should I reinforce outside and inside?

    Best welding rod for stick welder?
     

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  2. JL Sargent

    JL Sargent Senior Member

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  3. Scout_1969

    Scout_1969 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the thread link, lots of thorough information. Looks like;
    Bucket is mild steel
    V notch the crack
    Drill holes at the end of the crack
    Preheat metal
    Use 7018 rod preferably or 6013 rod second
    Weld mild steel plate over crack
     
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  4. Billrog

    Billrog Senior Member

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    7018 and a gusset in the second pic. between the bucket and that thick metal shoulder.
     
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  5. Scout_1969

    Scout_1969 Well-Known Member

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    Are you thinking to angle a gusset from bucket to the shoulder where the cylinder mounts? (Kinda same angle as bottom piece?)
     
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  6. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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    NO NO NO to 6013. About the only thing they are good for is sheet metal and I'd still probably use something different. Maybe 6010 or 6011 for a root pass covered by 7018. Your bucket broke, you want to use a rod designed for dynamic and cyclic loading. 7018 and maybe a little preheat is what to use. If you don't have enough experience it might be better to just hire an experienced welder. This is something you want to fix right the 1st time.
     
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  7. Scout_1969

    Scout_1969 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the replies.
    7018 rod it is.
    I will do and provide what I can, but the actual welding will be by someone else. We’ve talked a little but I wanted to have an idea of the type of steel I have, best welding rod and advice on plates, gussets etc.
     
  8. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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    Nothing special with the steel unless you're talking about a bolt on cutting edge. They can be heat treated steel and require different rods and welding techniques.
    On the back where the steel ripped open, you'll probably need to heat it to push it back in place. Bevel the edges for the best penetration. After welding grind it flat and put an oval shaped plate over top of the repair extending 2-3 inches past the repair. Drilling holes isn't really necessary on mild steel. Grinding out and getting all of the crack is though. Good to go 1/2in to an inch past where the crack looks to end. When possible weld in from each end of cracks so you don't leave a weld crater where the crack ended. Vertical up is the exception so that's when it's good to make sure to go past where the crack ended. Just use common sense with gussets and reinforcing plates. You don't need to go overboard. 1/4in or even 3/16in steel will be adequate for gussets or reinforcing plates. Gussets would help where it's broken by the cylinder mount. Just make sure everything is lined up straight and the gussets don't interfere with the cylinder or hoses.
     
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  9. JL Sargent

    JL Sargent Senior Member

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    Lets discuss that for a minute. Dave is right, you can go overboard. I was welding up tube connections with collars added on a heavy box blade once and a much older guy said "don't collar all those joints, it will be too strong and something much more expensive will break next time." That was some really good advice. Much easier to weld a connecting joint on a box blade than the lugs mounted to a differential housing on a 90 hp tractor.
     
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  10. Bluox

    Bluox Senior Member

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    Any 60xx rod is better than the steel in you buckets so if you like welding with 6013 have at it just make sure you grind the crack so you start welding at the bottom.
    grinding the crack out is all the preheat you will need.
    Most of the repair welding done with 7018 is because it is an iron powder rod giving a better deposit rate not because of some magical properties .
    Bob
     
  11. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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    Sorry but if a bucket is broken and needs repairs had to have some pretty dynamic loads applied to it. Whether it was from abuse or not built strong enough, 6013 is not ever the electrode of choice as is not designed for dynamic loading. It is for static loading which means it just sits there and there are better choices. It is commonly used for sheet metal and often called famer rod because it is easy to burn on a buzz box. 7014 is considered an iron powder electrode and is also not for dynamic loading. 7018 is classified as a low hydrogen electrode and designed for dynamic and cyclic loading. It is well established as the electrode of choice for equipment repairs. It has nothing to do with higher deposition rates, it's the best choice of electrode! 7028 is a low hydrogen electrode with added iron powder for higher deposition rates but only in flat and horizontal position. Tensile strength alone is not the determining factor is choosing the proper electrode for an application. You want the best chance of a successful repair, use 7018.
     
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  12. Bluox

    Bluox Senior Member

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    Dave if bullship was music you would be a Brass band.
    Bob
     
  13. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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    More like welding 101.
     
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  14. Scout_1969

    Scout_1969 Well-Known Member

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    The suggestions make a lot of sense. I tend to ‘throw a little extra’ into things, but this gives me confidence. Some take-sways for me:
    • Grinding a little past the crack-seems like it makes sure we get all of the crack out.
    • Oval plate 2-3” larger-oval seems stronger (circle vs square), mimics the crack and could shed water better. Packing of dirt and holding moisture is what weakened and caused this I believe
    • 1/4” plate- the bucket might only be 1/4” but I’ll check
    I like to tackle things myself if I can or try to understand what someone is doing for me.

    Thanks for the advice
     
  15. skyking1

    skyking1 Senior Member

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    I always thought 6011 was Farmer rod :)
     
  16. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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    6011 is sometimes referred to as farmer rod too. It is the best choice for dirty, painted or rusty steel that is difficult to clean. It has the best penetration of the mild steel rods and is basically an AC version of 6010. It is designed for dynamic loads but not as strong or as ductile as 7018. Some specialty rods are even more ductile than 7018 where ultimate strength is required. These rods are typically stainless based and quite pricey. Welding a heat treated cutting edge may be an application for specialty rods.
     
  17. JL Sargent

    JL Sargent Senior Member

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  18. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

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    I disagree that the dirt, moisture and corrosion caused this. That rust at the bottom is a coincidence. The crack at the top is caused by a poor design of that hydraulic cylinder mount allowing too much flex of the thin plate. If it was me, I'd farmer weld it with 6011, so everything is as it was originally, then put a plate on the bottom that's rusted out, and another plate on the inside over the part that's rusted out and out 2" from the cylinder mount boss. Then tap that plate for a zerk, fill it with grease, remove the zerk and weld over the hole, or put the zerk in from behind and leave it for the next guy to scratch his head over.

    You might have to heat it to get it back into shape. Tack everything and try the function of the bucket before finishing welding and putting the plates on. Don't be afraid to cut good metal to get it to go back exactly as it was, it's easier to re weld than to try to bend it back sometimes.

    I don't know what that was welded with originally, but it was probably 60,000 PSI wire weld, no stronger than 6011, and it didn't fail from the weld, it failed from design. A half decent repair with 6011 will last just fine in this application. You can see that it's been cracked for a while, catch those cracks earlier and even bubble gum welding will last just fine, save a lot of work bending it back also. Welder Dave is right on rod preference, but this isn't a critical weld, it's very unlikely to fail again from 6011 vs 7018.

    I bet if you look at later models with a similar bucket, they'll have a better mount design. Like the mount will continue further up the bucket, and/or spread the force out over a plate.
     
  19. skyking1

    skyking1 Senior Member

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    my two cents: That did not crack out all at once. Usually stuff like that starts cracking and flexing and tearing apart over a few to a few hundred cycles.
    After you fix it keep a sharp eye on it. It may crack again, but if it is still in one piece it will be much less trouble to patch.
     
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  20. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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    The info posted in that article is contrary to what 6011 was designed for. Yes it has deep penetration but was originally designed as alternative to 6010 that could be used on AC current. It is not designed to be used on DC-. It doesn't have quite as much penetration as 6010 but generally has a smoother arc. Misinformation is common on the internet and it can be difficult to know what to believe. Listing 6011 as all polarity puts in question the validity of the person who wrote it. It is quite common to weld groove welds with a 6010/6011 to get full penetration followed by 7018. If the person doing the repair is capable, 7018 will give the strongest repair. The most important aspect is having the required skill though. Have seen too many times where someone thinks because they have a welder, they can do all their repairs. On critical stuff get someone experienced. Not a lot different than doing your own oil changes and basic maintainence but getting a mechanic to do major repairs.
     
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