OldandWorn
Senior Member
Noted.....Thanks
-
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Advice for my first big job
- Thread starter OldandWorn
- Start date
Noted.....Thanks
Sorry to be off topic but I noticed in an earlier post you had mentioned having 2 transformers to feed your place resulting in another meter. What is the distance between the pole barn and your house? Can you not split the difference with the transformer between the 2?. Beside the transformer have 1 meter on a post feeding a splitter, then run secondary to your buildings from there. A second meter will usually have basic charges applied to it whether you use any power or not. And thats forever.
OldandWorn
Senior Member
Not off topic at all. I have spent a lot of time thinking about doing this but since it involves so many unknown future variables I give up in frustration and decide to leave it the way it is. Besides only having one meter and bill the other major benefits are less cost (or maybe not because of secondary wire) and being able to run all buildings with a backup generator from one central transfer switch. Less cost because the POCO charges primary line footage to the transformer serving the home and all other equipment and wire to out buildings are free provided it feeds another meter. It sucks that I have to pass the barn to get to the house but it is what it is.
There is also a possibility that I can't build where I want to. I was in the middle of sorting out the septic when this unexpected power opportunity became availiable and placed it on the back burner. The ground slope is at or sightly over what they want for a sand mound system but a conventional would easily pass. Because of politics or just being overly cautious it's rare to give a permit for a conventional system in my county. Even if I pass their soil tests my feeling is that it would be difficult to get a conventional permit.
Another problem is the lack of a real road going down to the homesite. The power engineer said that I would have to have at least a graveled road before they would install any equipment down there. She also wasn't too keen on running line past the barn for something that might not get built. They provide the secondary wire so the install would cost them more money.
Secondary wire length. I may have mentioned that it would be 300' more to the second transformer. There would also be another 75 to 100' of secondary to the house. I will have 1 maybe 2 other buildings close to the existing pole barn. One possibly on the flat area where my trailer is which is another 75 to 100'. It's still doable but the secondary runs are getting longer than I'm comfortable with and I would have to foot the cost of all secondary wire. The POCO would only install for free the short piece from the transformer to the meter on the pedestal. The customer is responsible for everything after the meter(s).
More than you wanted to hear but these are the things I have been juggling around about this decision. The transformer pad and conduit to the barn will be the last thing I do so I may still go with your idea between now and then if the POCO engineer will accept the change.
So 400 ft total distance between buildings meaning 200 ft runs of secondary from a centrally located transformer. That sounds doable. Is that a real word? You would have to increase the size of the wire and of course that would mean more expense for you up front. I used to do this type of work for a utility and I aproached every job as if I were paying the bills and if you were my customer I would be trying to talk you out of 2 transformers 2 meters and 2 powerbills. I urge you to speak to an electrician about the cable requirements and costs and compare the up front costs against paying that extra power bill forever. In my area there is a $35.00 charge for every meter each month.even if you don't use any power. Also those special deals for powerlines don't last forever and you could be in for a huge dollar surprise when you must pay the going rate for high voltage underground power and another padmount transformer. Tell that utility that you are for sure going to build that house in the near future. Of course there may be more to the story that I am not considering such as the septic field issues and possible alternate location of the house. You may even be trying to convince your wife to live in the poleshed for all I know.LOL
Reguarding the septic field issue, if the soil in your pics is any indication of the type of soil in the proposed field location it does look OK. It certainly does not seem impermiable. Maybe too sandy and would not treat the effluent adequately before it returns to the water table. A 2 chamber septic tank provides primary treatment of the sewage. The soil in a traditional field (final treatment)then treats the effluent further to a point where it is safe to return to any water course. Certain types of sand, large granules and rock do not provide enough surface area for the organisms in the soil to provide adequate treatment. A sand mound using a very specific type of sand and properly constructed with pressure distribution, performs secondary treatment of the effluent reducing the dangerous bacteria and pathogens to a point where it is safe to release to less than adequate final treatment in the problem soil.
However, there now are high tech septic tanks that provide a levell of treatment (primary and secondary) that will allow a traditional field to be built.
Thats a long drawn out way of saying you may be able to put your house where you want it regardless of septic field problems.
There I go. Off topic again.
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DirtIsMyName
Well-Known Member
Most health department bureaucrats like rubberstamp, "one size fits all" septic systems. Any system outside their comfort zone has to be signed off by an engineer but then anything an engineer signs will fly.
Clothes have a lot of synthetic fibers that will not break down in a septic system. Install a screen to catch fibers in your washer outlet and it will add many years to the service life of a septic system, better yet a screen to a grey water system.
Clothes have a lot of synthetic fibers that will not break down in a septic system. Install a screen to catch fibers in your washer outlet and it will add many years to the service life of a septic system, better yet a screen to a grey water system.
OldandWorn
Senior Member
Thanks for the screen tip, I never would have thought of that. Their grey water policy irkes me to no end and I feel like challenging them on the issue. Unless I'm missing something it makes no sense to flood a septic system with all of that grey water.
OldandWorn
Senior Member
It's $7.50 per month minimum monthly charge for a barn structure but I realize rates can change. It didn't take me long to realize why they were so meter happy. I pointed to where the future barn/shop buildings might go and they were quick to mention the free installation and secondary wire feeding from the transformer. My plan at the present time is to install a meter main with feed through lugs on the barn so I can feed extra buildings from the outside panel, similar to it being on a pedestal. I was very lucky with my timing. I requested service 1 week after a merger and that saved me $3 per foot on the 1800' line charge.
I want to keep the septic system simple as possible and I'm going to try my best for gravity conventional. Even if I have to go with a sand mound further away on flatter ground I will have enough drop to use a siphon dosing tank which has no moving parts instead of an electric pump.
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OldandWorn
Senior Member
What a relief to finally get this mess filled in before we got hit with anymore rain. It was eating bucketfuls of gravel but didn't seem to be firming up under the power conduit. Then all of a sudden the muck stopped trying to pull my Muck Boots off and the floor became very solid. The total amount of gravel to fill at grade over both conduits ended up being 6 yards. The gravel also extends out laterally in the trench to the highest possible water level.
2" phone conduit and caution tape
2" phone conduit and caution tape
OldandWorn
Senior Member
My other neighbor who is helping me did a really nice job with the rock retaining wall on the culvert which used to be just an overgrown swale. There is still a lot of blue clay chunks and other crud that needs to be removed from the center and other side of the culvert. Since the property owner is filling in the trench with gravel he is bringing in his skid steer to take away the extra fill.
I tamped the area around the pole and sweeps really well in 6" lifts.
My neighbor is turning out to be quite the MacGyver. I mentioned that I needed a way to hold the phone wire and a last thought roll of pull string. He took a couple of measurements and came back after lunch with this.
I tamped the area around the pole and sweeps really well in 6" lifts.
My neighbor is turning out to be quite the MacGyver. I mentioned that I needed a way to hold the phone wire and a last thought roll of pull string. He took a couple of measurements and came back after lunch with this.
OldandWorn
Senior Member
Big progress this weekend but it was in the mid 90’s with oppressive humidity. Not the type of weather for an older guy with an office job to be working in so I had to take a LOT of breaks. I tip my hat to you folks who do this sort of work every day. Oh, and I found out that washing pants doesn’t necessarily mean that the dirt will come out of the pockets. The new plan is to empty the pockets before washing.
I outdid myself on trench straightness 101, it must be machinist in me coming out. ijoker are you seeing this? Actually, level rock free ground was a big help.
The little jog to the left of the trench on the power conduit was to miss a “tip of the iceberg” rock. I have learned my lesson about not disturbing sleeping dogs as it could have been the size of a Buick.
I outdid myself on trench straightness 101, it must be machinist in me coming out. ijoker are you seeing this? Actually, level rock free ground was a big help.
The little jog to the left of the trench on the power conduit was to miss a “tip of the iceberg” rock. I have learned my lesson about not disturbing sleeping dogs as it could have been the size of a Buick.
OldandWorn
Senior Member
Rocks Rocks Everywhere
The mysteries of mother earth never ceases to amaze me. That long straight grassy road had ZERO rocks but when I entered into the second field they were falling from the sky as if someone flipped on a switch. Much worst than on my property as they were from the top to the bottom of the trench.
The mysteries of mother earth never ceases to amaze me. That long straight grassy road had ZERO rocks but when I entered into the second field they were falling from the sky as if someone flipped on a switch. Much worst than on my property as they were from the top to the bottom of the trench.
OldandWorn
Senior Member
As you can see from my spoil piles in the background I stopped about 30’ short of the second spring creek and I’m not sure of the next step. I believe the sides are too steep and the bottom too muddy to take the hoe into it. I have an extendable dipper stick so I’m thinking I should dig to the center from both sides without entering the culvert which is about 10 to 12’ wide and 4’ lower than the surrounding ground. Do you think I should switch to my 24” bucket? To get deep into the culvert floor my trenches on the sides are going to be pretty deep and it seems like I’m always farting around in the bottom of my trenches for some reason or another. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
There is a small flow in this culvert and the ground looks quite mushy.
If you look closely upper left of center you can see a small orange flag next to the brown grass which is my first junction/pull point. I actually extended it 30’ which I will explain in my next post.
There is a small flow in this culvert and the ground looks quite mushy.
If you look closely upper left of center you can see a small orange flag next to the brown grass which is my first junction/pull point. I actually extended it 30’ which I will explain in my next post.
OldandWorn
Senior Member
I obtained permission from the power engineer to extend the junction box/pull point by 30’ for a straighter pull on the 900’ run going up the steep hill. She wanted photos of the new location so I though I would post them here as well.
Original flag with the new location at the traffic cone.
The third and final creek crossing is about at the end of the blue line. Although it’s not a deep culvert it has the largest flow and might be the most difficult because of the tight and swampy work area. My property boundry is at the tree line so I’m back on my land for the rest of the run.
Original flag with the new location at the traffic cone.
The third and final creek crossing is about at the end of the blue line. Although it’s not a deep culvert it has the largest flow and might be the most difficult because of the tight and swampy work area. My property boundry is at the tree line so I’m back on my land for the rest of the run.
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You have the right idea about your approach to the next creek crossing. If you are unsure about getting through there your idea is the safest bet. If the banks are stable you can back up to the point at which your back tires will start down over the edge. Have your outriggers down, just above the ground, as you back up. Just in case the bank gives way un-expectedly. Be sure to pay some attention to the outriggers as you back up. You don't want to hit anything with them. As I have said before, be sure to have your pipe all glued together before you dig. Once you start digging the first half you will have an idea as to how well the ditch will stand and how much water you may have entering your ditch. I still suggest that you take some of your pipe and lay it in the flow line of the creek (parrallel with the creek). Back fill over the up stream side of the pipe, leaving the end open, to force the water to enter the pipe. If the creek bed is close to flat, or even reverse fall, you should also backfill over the down stream side of the pipe (again, leaving the end open so that the water can escape) so that the water will not "back up" into your trench. A few light taps on the backfill will help to seal the water out and keep it from leaching through to the trench. The main object will be to get the water to enter the pipe, transfer to the down stream side of the trench, and on down the creek. The dryer you can keep your trench, the easier the job will be, and the higher the success rate will be. Of course, you will have to "tunnel" under said pipe but the extra work, and time, will be worth it if you can keep the trench standing until you are done laying and bedding your conduit. Once you go over to the opposite side of the creek then you can dig as close as you can to your "drain pipe" on the same side you are digging from. Dig all the way down to your conduit grade. Dig the length of "one set", not all the way out of the creek bed yet. Once you are down to grade you can reach over the "drain pipe" and push out the plug towards you. Once you have the plug out you can clean the spoils out from the side you are digging from. Be careful not to push too hard on the plug as this will tend to make the sides fall in. Take small bites starting close to the top (just under the drain pipe). You will also have to move the hoe around to get the best angles as you do this. At the beggining you should set the hoe as far as you can, away from the drain pipe, yet still be able to reach it. This will allow you to dig a more verticle back wall without damaging the drain pipe with the heel of the bucket. When it's time to push out the plug you will have to move the hoe as close as you can to the drain pipe. This will allow you to get as far under the drain pipe as possible without hitting the dipper (just above where the bucket mounts to it) on the drain pipe. The deeper you are, under the drain pipe, the easier the manuever will be. The description may sound complicated and confusing but it will become clear to you once you start in.
The two foot wide bucket may be adviseable if you are getting in the trench. The only real downside, if you only talking about a small length, will be that you will use up more bedding material. An advantage will be that the digging should be a little easier, and that the trench walls should be more stable. You will still end up with dirt in your pockets though. The wider bucket will allow the rocks to enter the bucket more easily. With a one foot bucket you often will fight the rocks and, more often than not, they will ride out of the trench on the side cutters rather than in the bucket. Any binding or pressure against the sidewall will only work to de-stabilize it. This will make it more prone to cave in. Again, this sounds complicated, but time in the seat will reveal the benefits of what I'm trying to explain here. If the ditch caves in it will not be the end of the world...as long as you can still reach the spoils with the hoe, and as long as it does not cave in so wide that it extends beyond the effective ends of the drain pipe. Time is of the essence. The clock starts ticking once you start digging. The longer the ditch stays open the more chance you will have for water intrusion and cave in. This is why I suggest that you pre-assemble the pipe. Having your neighbor, or whomever, on hand is adviseable. Once you remove the plug then you can finish digging your way out of the creek bed. Drop your pipe in and get it covered with sand ASAP. If possible, start at the center of the creek with bedding/backfill. If possible backfill and compact, as best as possible, in the flow line of the creek before you move on. Backfill enough so that the water will not fill any other portions of your trench. This will only cause you more headaches (like pipe floatation, and cave in). If you think that the ditch will not stand, for the duration, than knock the edges off while you can still reach everything. Remove anything that you think will fall in later. It will take longer but will save you a lot of time and effort in the long run. The deepest point of the trench will be at the tops of the banks (both sides of the creek bed). I would suggest that you "lay back" the trench at these points. That is to say that you should dig wide at the top leaving the trench bucket width at the bottom. Use your judgement and error on the side of caution. No use getting someone hurt over this.
Earlier, I said to back up the hoe to the edge if it's stable enough. If you don't trust the egde, or if you need to get closer to the center of the creek, you can dig ramps down the creek walls. This can help accomplish (2) things. Frist, it will allow you to get closer to the center of the creek affording more reach. Second, it will reduce the depth of the trenches at the creek bed edges. If you do employ this technique I recommend that you ramp both sides of the creek before you start your trench. It will take more time to make the ramps, and if you remember, time is of the essence. Take the time before the clock starts ticking (when you start with the trench). After all your pipe is in and backfilled you can restore the creek walls if you need to.
The two foot wide bucket may be adviseable if you are getting in the trench. The only real downside, if you only talking about a small length, will be that you will use up more bedding material. An advantage will be that the digging should be a little easier, and that the trench walls should be more stable. You will still end up with dirt in your pockets though. The wider bucket will allow the rocks to enter the bucket more easily. With a one foot bucket you often will fight the rocks and, more often than not, they will ride out of the trench on the side cutters rather than in the bucket. Any binding or pressure against the sidewall will only work to de-stabilize it. This will make it more prone to cave in. Again, this sounds complicated, but time in the seat will reveal the benefits of what I'm trying to explain here. If the ditch caves in it will not be the end of the world...as long as you can still reach the spoils with the hoe, and as long as it does not cave in so wide that it extends beyond the effective ends of the drain pipe. Time is of the essence. The clock starts ticking once you start digging. The longer the ditch stays open the more chance you will have for water intrusion and cave in. This is why I suggest that you pre-assemble the pipe. Having your neighbor, or whomever, on hand is adviseable. Once you remove the plug then you can finish digging your way out of the creek bed. Drop your pipe in and get it covered with sand ASAP. If possible, start at the center of the creek with bedding/backfill. If possible backfill and compact, as best as possible, in the flow line of the creek before you move on. Backfill enough so that the water will not fill any other portions of your trench. This will only cause you more headaches (like pipe floatation, and cave in). If you think that the ditch will not stand, for the duration, than knock the edges off while you can still reach everything. Remove anything that you think will fall in later. It will take longer but will save you a lot of time and effort in the long run. The deepest point of the trench will be at the tops of the banks (both sides of the creek bed). I would suggest that you "lay back" the trench at these points. That is to say that you should dig wide at the top leaving the trench bucket width at the bottom. Use your judgement and error on the side of caution. No use getting someone hurt over this.
Earlier, I said to back up the hoe to the edge if it's stable enough. If you don't trust the egde, or if you need to get closer to the center of the creek, you can dig ramps down the creek walls. This can help accomplish (2) things. Frist, it will allow you to get closer to the center of the creek affording more reach. Second, it will reduce the depth of the trenches at the creek bed edges. If you do employ this technique I recommend that you ramp both sides of the creek before you start your trench. It will take more time to make the ramps, and if you remember, time is of the essence. Take the time before the clock starts ticking (when you start with the trench). After all your pipe is in and backfilled you can restore the creek walls if you need to.
OldandWorn
Senior Member
There has to be a better way
How do you folks compact these trenches properly? I have been standing in the trench and raking the dirt in with a garden hoe a few inches at a time and pounding it down with my feet. Frankly, my feet can't take much more of this not to mention the added time that it takes.
In most all cases, other than the fields I just crossed, there is not good side access to the trench and I still feel that I have to manually pull the dirt in to bed the conduits because of the many rocks. Other than the fields, there also has not been enough room to place the spoil pile farther away from the trench so I can compact with the hoe bucket without running over the spoil pile. And if I place the spoil pile farther away, manually pulling in the dirt would be very difficult and way too much work for me. The second phone conduit at a different level also adds to the difficulty as I still have a spoil pile while bedding this conduit and have to worry about the effects of excessive settling on this conduit as well.
When I was in the back storage room of a local excavator borrowing the traffic cone I saw something that made me drool. :idea I think they are called jumping jacks. It looks like a motorized post hole digger but with a tamper on the bottom. They seem heavy and awkward but do you folks think this would be the hot ticket? I can easily pull dirt in the trench all day long but this foot tamping in 1 or 2" lifts has got to go. This tool would be a huge benefit for the steep uphill with absolutely no access from the sides as the hoe will barely fit. But can this tool be used on a hill? I know just from looking at it that it needs to be held level or it would try to kill you.
How do you folks compact these trenches properly? I have been standing in the trench and raking the dirt in with a garden hoe a few inches at a time and pounding it down with my feet. Frankly, my feet can't take much more of this not to mention the added time that it takes.
In most all cases, other than the fields I just crossed, there is not good side access to the trench and I still feel that I have to manually pull the dirt in to bed the conduits because of the many rocks. Other than the fields, there also has not been enough room to place the spoil pile farther away from the trench so I can compact with the hoe bucket without running over the spoil pile. And if I place the spoil pile farther away, manually pulling in the dirt would be very difficult and way too much work for me. The second phone conduit at a different level also adds to the difficulty as I still have a spoil pile while bedding this conduit and have to worry about the effects of excessive settling on this conduit as well.
When I was in the back storage room of a local excavator borrowing the traffic cone I saw something that made me drool. :idea I think they are called jumping jacks. It looks like a motorized post hole digger but with a tamper on the bottom. They seem heavy and awkward but do you folks think this would be the hot ticket? I can easily pull dirt in the trench all day long but this foot tamping in 1 or 2" lifts has got to go. This tool would be a huge benefit for the steep uphill with absolutely no access from the sides as the hoe will barely fit. But can this tool be used on a hill? I know just from looking at it that it needs to be held level or it would try to kill you.
Jumping jacks are usually a pretty effective way to get compaction. IMO compaction is not the most important thing for most of your trench. Most of your trench is in un-improved areas so, I assume, some ditch settlement can be tolorated. The worst part is the effects to the second conduit. If you are only talking about 12" of verticle seperation than you probably can get away with not compacting between the conduits. Simply install the electric conduit, shade it to the level of the tel. conduit (by hand, I'm affraid, at least until 6" over either conduit), install the second conduit and shade it too. The remaining backfill can be done with the hoe and tire rolling can be your compactive effort. I ommited the warning tape so install it as required too. If you feel as though you must compact between the conduits than this can also be accomplished with the backhoe bucket. You will have to straddle the trench. Once the electric conduit has been hand shaded you sweep some dirt in with the hoe. If possible, sweep in the dirt that is closest to the ditch so that you can back up without driving on the spoils. Leave your outriggers out in case the trench caves off under your tires. You can either do this all the way along the trench or do it in sections (the reach of the machine) installing all conduit and tape, and backfilling as you go. IMO it would be much easier to install both conduit at the same depth (I probably already suggested this and you probably already said why you can't do this). If you dug everything with your 2' bucket this would allow nearly 2' seperation of the conduits.
If you use the jumping jacks (can be rented at most any rental yard for about $80/day, $240/week) you should not exceed 12" lifts. A 12", rock free, lift should be enough to protect the bottom conduit and give you enough compaction to prevent any detrimental issues with the upper conduit. If you need 12" of vertical seperation than I would suggest that you make your lift about 14 to 16 inches thick. This should compact back to about 12". Again, you are only trying to reduce the problems of settlement for the upper conduit. These lifts exceed the normaly accepted practices for propper compaction, with this tool, but should be fine for the middle of a field with the intended purpose. These things weigh about 150# so they can be a PITA to man handle. Jumping jacks can be operated on slopes but it is not the most desireable job. If it is steep enough it will take (2) people to do. One person will operate the tool and the other person will hold the rope. The rope will be tied to the foot (usually a small eyelet is on the foot). The jumping jack will, at all times, be pointing up the hill if on a slope. The operator will be down hill of the tool and will steer the tool, if necessary, back and forth across the trench. The slope work will require more down force on the handle than flat ground. The "rope man" will help control the decent and/or assist in the climb. I suggest 12-15' of rope length. This will help reduce the shaking effect on the "rope mans" hand's. The 1/4" pull rope will be sufficient. If possible afford enough rope so that the "rope man" can handle the rope with it going around his back (at about belt height). This will spread the load out and will reduce his effort, and the stress to his hands.
OldandWorn
Senior Member
Wow DGODGR....not ignoring you. I'm still trying to soak info in from your first post.
OldandWorn
Senior Member
I must have missed that or didn't understand but it sounds simple to do in this culvert. I did notice that the first culvert was filling subterranean through the walls but I guess this is where quickness comes into play.
Understood about digging around the bypass. Took a while to sink in until I followed the motions.
You can say that again!!!! That last section made a believer out of me. Many times the bucket would get stuck and drag the stabilizers and tires across the grass making a mess.
Been there done that. I can easily have the conduit assembled on this culvert and i remember you mentioning it early on. Having to build the sweep on the first culvert made me hesitate but I think I could have guessed at the angle and it would have been close enough.
How about the #57 gravel (3/4 minus I think) like I used on the first culvert? It seemed to work very well although I wasn't thrilled about the sharpness. The stone dust just turned to mush and the pea gravel turned out to be something way way different. I thought pea gravel was named for looking like peas? You know, like nice round river stones. Any other alternatives to sand? I can order sand but I wonder if a truckload of giant boulders will show up.
OldandWorn
Senior Member
That was my main concern and I want to make sure the rest of the trench on my neighbor's property sinks as little as possible.
Actually there is no seperation requirements for telephone. At first I wasn't going to install telephone. Then I decided to just lay the direct burial wire in the trench along with the caution tape. Then I thought about all of the rocks and animals gnawing on it so I decided to install conduit. On the other hand there could be an extreme shock and fire danger, remote but it could happen. The power is 13,000 volts the same as what is run on top of some power poles. I'm sure you have seen the power available when they touch the ground or a tree and sometimes the fuse doesn't blow and they can burn until the power is manually shut off. If this were to happen the conduit would be toast and anything near it would also be disintergrated and possibly electrified with very high voltage. Of course this could also happen up on the pole but the high voltage wire and ground are less than 1/2" apart inside the conduit and it wouldn't take much to start a short if a little water got inside of the cable from a nick in the insulation.
Another thing is AC hum being picked up on the phone line. They are quite a few feet apart up on the pole (lowest wire) but being too close for 1800' has me a little worried.
There is 21" of seperation now and I wouldn't have any problems going with 18 or maybe 15".
That would have worked well. I think I will do that going through the culverts if I decide to switch buckets. If the hill is as rocky as I think it will be I may use the 24" bucket there as well. I was initially thinking that moving twice as much dirt wouldn't be very productive but your points about compaction make it actually seem easier.
Forget that idea. I have a tough enough time with a 60 pound bag of Sakrete.