AC Refrigerant is changing, Again

[.RC.]

Wait until you see the price of r1234tf.

 

[92U 3406]

Farmers will still be using R12 equivilent in 2028 in their old gems from the 70s and 80s lol.

 

[funwithfuel]

I recall reading a story a couple years ago. Audi and Volkswagen told the TÜV to go pound sand. They weren't going to use it, the risk to occupants and first responders outweighed any environmental benefits. Don't know if they changed their position, but that's what I remembered reading. Their tests showed how the flash gasses didn't mix well with the high heat of turbo 4 banger exhaust and plastic underhood components.

 

[92U 3406]

I recall reading a story a couple years ago. Audi and Volkswagen told the TÜV to go pound sand. They weren't going to use it, the risk to occupants and first responders outweighed any environmental benefits. Don't know if they changed their position, but that's what I remembered reading. Their tests showed how the flash gasses didn't mix well with the high heat of turbo 4 banger exhaust and plastic underhood components.

This is the issue I'm starting to notice with everything "environmentally friendly" - it poses a greater risk to our safety/health than what we were already using. Just like that new brake clean we have to use here now once old stock is used up.

 

[funwithfuel]

Just like DEF in sealed plastic jugs that are not reusable, and made with plastic that isn't readily recyclable.

 

[Coaldust]

I remember ASE, MACS and the OEMs talking about the dangers of flammable refrigerants. Warning us not to use replacement refrigerants.

Today, flammable refrigerants are applauded. Whatever it takes to save the world. When was the last time you even heard anything about the ozone hole? Which was a farce, anyways. Oh’ yeah. R134 saved the ozone layer, along with the Montreal Protocol. It’s all so tiring.

Ask a Zoomer about the ozone hole and they won’t even know what you are talking about.
Because now, we have to worry about cow farts spewing methane.

 

[funwithfuel]

I remember when R12 was hitting $35-40/lb. Hillbillies was pumping flammable in OTR trucks. Terrible consequences, when recovered and leak testing. Explosions etc. That's where the need for refrigerant identifiers came from.

 

[92U 3406]

I remember ASE, MACS and the OEMs talking about the dangers of flammable refrigerants. Warning us not to use replacement refrigerants.

Today, flammable refrigerants are applauded. Whatever it takes to save the world. When was the last time you even heard anything about the ozone hole? Which was a farce, anyways. Oh’ yeah. R134 saved the ozone layer, along with the Montreal Protocol. It’s all so tiring.

Ask a Zoomer about the ozone hole and they won’t even know what you are talking about.
Because now, we have to worry about cow farts spewing methane.

I'm a younger guy but I remember them telling us we're screwed because of the ozone hole. Seems like they make a new boogeyman every decade.


Like I've said before, I'm 100% all for making the world cleaner but we're just going backwards lately it seems.

 

[Entropy1]

My thermodynamics professor taught us that propane will work quite well as a refrigerant, but don't do it - EVER, because flammable refrigerants are illegal in the US. If you have a leak, you'll blow up buildings and/or burn people alive. Point blank - any engineer who stamps a flammable refrigerant design in the US will get jail time.

Fast-forward - apparently the proper kickbacks were paid to the correct lawmakers & industry regulators, and now we've got flammable refrigerants being used in the US...

Yes, R1234YF will ignite if sprayed onto a hot exhaust manifold. Consider that we've got impact-switches to turn off electric fuel pumps, and fuses to cut electrical shorts before wires turn red hot - but if you bust an AC line under the hood, let's hope you can get out of the car before you burn. . .

Additionally, R1234YF is a crappy refrigerant. So crappy that an IHX (internal heat exchanger) must be incorporated. More specifically, a new car with R1234YF works moderately well at freeway speeds. Sitting in traffic however, you'll think the AC needs to be recharged.

If you are mechanically inclined (which the vast majority of the folks on these boards are) - it would be beneficial to retrofit a R134A universal system onto a newer R1234YF vehicle. Unfortunately in the not-too-distant future it will be easier to buy cocaine than cans of R134A (it's already banned in Washington State for sale to private citizens).

One last tid-bit. For comparison of environmental damage - R12 does 1000 units of damage. R134A does 40 units of damage. R1234YF does 12 units of damage, but R1234YF can also burn your family alive in a car crash. Because if we can save just one ozone molecule, your life will be worth it.

Pay no attention to the fact that ozone generates naturally from electric fields in our atmosphere.

 

[DMiller]

All the enviro damage is estimates, no science to support just mathematic formulas against breakdown rates.
That noted the facts remain Asian consumers with African and many S. American still manufacture or end use R12&22, Chinese and Russian equipment for cold storage or refrigeration is still 12&22. Only the Idiot West put up with the changes and those other nations reap the whirlwind financially producing it.
Mexico Plants still produce 12&22 where cannot ship across the N line but can send South. That from a Dupont chemist that came to work at Wife’s facility here. Are being Duped.

The Ozone Hole was noted in that CFC ‘Decomposition’ consumed ozone, yet the ones reporting that failed to accept the chemical breakdown of the stuff was reducing volumes of it. Argued had a 100 year life yet that exhausted in less than 20 after stopped using in The Western Nations with the others still ramping up. HFCs and other points are being guessed at since western CFCs were replaced while eastern nations still use it to mass volumes.

 

[crane operator]

So are the big commercial systems going to have to switch also? What a boom for the HVAC guys.

Thanks for bringing this up DMiller, I had heard rumblings of this in the wind, I'll ask the HVAC guys I work with what they are thinking this is going to do.

I know about a year or two back, they had a small efficiency change, and since then, a lot of reliability has gone out the window. They had to make the fan motors and everything lighter again, and its been a struggle.

I find us helping change out a lot of 5 year old units, where we used to only change out 20-30 year old units.

 

[JD955SC]

So are the big commercial systems going to have to switch also? What a boom for the HVAC guys.

Thanks for bringing this up DMiller, I had heard rumblings of this in the wind, I'll ask the HVAC guys I work with what they are thinking this is going to do.

I know about a year or two back, they had a small efficiency change, and since then, a lot of reliability has gone out the window. They had to make the fan motors and everything lighter again, and its been a struggle.

I find us helping change out a lot of 5 year old units, where we used to only change out 20-30 year old units.

Stationary HVAC is changing as well. Not sure about the commercial side but residential currently uses R-410a and is changing to something else. What, I don’t know off the top of my head.

I just know my $8000 R-410a unit will last 10-15 years instead of 30 like an R-22 unit would so that’s great

 

[crane operator]

Our 3 year old HVAC system at the house, has already lost the main house fan once, and had another trip from the repairman.

 

[DMiller]

R32 or Blended in to make R454b is the replacement for 410a, HOWEVER, Pressures are seriously INSANE, is Propane based and also seriously Flammable under High Pressure Discharge. Blower Motors are NOT designed as Explosive Atmosphere Resistant as done in Paint Booths. Can see a great deal of Insurers filing Suit against the enforcement of these refrigerants.

 

[Entropy1]

R410A already requires high operating pressures, resulting in appreciable wear & tear on the compressor. The R410A molecule itself is leak-friendly. It will dump the entire system through a miniscule soft-goods leak that would otherwise seal against other refrigerants.

DMiller is correct. High-population nations around the world are still actively consuming vast quantities of R12 - which is bar-none the best refrigerant man ever invented. I personally would like to see R12 sales banned to some of these nations, in exchange for permitting Americans use R12 again. Our taking the high-road crap needs to stop. It's self-destructive and is lowering our quality of life.

 

[DMiller]

The Chinese Electronics Production facilities DUMP R12 atmospherically as use it for a Cleaning Solvent on Electronics Chip Boards. Tractor Trailer size LOADS of it. So, if that made the Ozone Hole it should be affecting Ozone Everywhere not just Antarctica.

 

[Vetech63]

As a smoker, I won't be converting ****. Ill just stop doing ac work.

 

[funwithfuel]

As a smoker, I won't be converting ****. Ill just stop doing ac work.

What better way to leak test.

 

[Labparamour]

As a smoker, I won't be converting ****. Ill just stop doing ac work.

 

[Tones]

Crazy. 10yrs ago I came across a bloke who ran straight propane in AC systems on his earthmoving gear. Cheap as chips and easily available without any problems.