983B crank seized, now what?

[wrwtexan]

I feel like the dog that finally caught the car! I was out working on a county machine near home when a passerby stopped and asked if I worked for the public. I said yes and that's when my troubles may have started. He said he had a Cat 983B track loader with a seized engine. Not familiar with track loader models, I thought it was the size based on my D6C with the 3306 engine in it when I said I would take it on. Wrong! Wow. Went by and looked at it today and realized it is bigger than a house and I assume built on a D8K undercarriage. After exchanging names, we realized we're both locals so I can't wash this one off as easily as a chance meeting.
He told me it had started knocking so they changed the engine oil and it ran fine for two hours or so then as he was nosing off into a ditch, it seized without warning and now the starter won't bump it. After some research, I found it has a 3408 engine with a bare weight of 7K pounds, more than many of the farm tractors I work on. Short of a lifting apparatus, is this a BIG job or not too bad? It will need to be pulled back from the water's edge before beginning repair. Undercarriage is new with dozer pads and machine is otherwise in good condition so it's not a scrapper.

 

[Bob/Ont]

I think it has a 3406 in it.
Later Bob

 

[kshansen]

I think it has a 3406 in it.
Later Bob

That's also what I see as the engine in a 983B in SIS and it also says:

Remove engine (33) and torque converter as a unit from the machine. The weight is 4500 lb., not that bad!

 

[RBMcCloskey]

I would start determining what exactly is wrong.

First, get it out of the ditch and on dry level ground.

Drop the front belly pan and then the oil pan. What happened, did they spin a connecting rod bearing and the mains are ok?

If it is a main, loosen the cap and see if you can roll new bearing shells in, if not can you turn it over with the main cap off, if you can, you may be able to save the crank.

If so, disconnect the bad hole, cut the connecting rod to clear the crank. If it turns over and nothing else looks dire, put the pan back on add fresh oil and get it started.

Slowly get it on a trailer and to the shop or further surgery.

 

[wrwtexan]

My mistake. I meant 3406, not 3408. I had found some info that said it was 6,800 lbs bare but that did seem a little high as my old 8H engine is 7K and much larger. If it is only 4,500, a friend has a trackhoe that would lift it. As I've done enough inframe work on less offensive machines, I don't think I want to crawl under it to do much, especially with the torque values needed on rods and mains (good way to tear a rotator cusp). If it won't pry over, and if he wants to go through with the repairs, I'll just pull it in field and bring it back to the shop. The trackhoe owner has a 9400 JD I might could borrow to pull it back up to better ground. It looked like maybe the hardnose and radiator have to come off for the engine to come out.

 

[tctractors]

The 3406 engine is not to bad to work on I sit them on the flywheel end sometimes when I strip them out, the parts are common to find still unlike the rest of the 983, if the shovel was in the U.K. I would try to beg the job off you or at least put you off the task so I could Cop it.
tctractors

 

[kshansen]

My question would be why do some people think an engine that is knocking just needs an oil change? Then they put it to work for another two hours?

Just think how much money they could have saved if at the first sign of the knock they shut it down, call the flat bed and slowly walked it on the trailer and hauled it to the shop! But then guy like tctractors would not be buying new Land Rover huh?

People that smart I would make sign a contract before I even touched the machine. When you find the engine spun a main and damaged the block they will faint at the cost.

Not saying it can't be fixed, probably can get oversized OD mains for it, or as we did a couple times on other engines is have a good machinist bore the block out and make a sleeve to bring the bore back to standard with a couple brass pins to hold it in place. Bolt on a new or good used cap then line bore.

 

[wrwtexan]

kshansen; I have to agree. A deep knock is not something to just keep running and see if it goes away. It only gets worse and usually in a really bad way. Doing some searching, I found a used running truck engine for $4500 so if it did go really bad, maybe I can go that route. The larger the machine, the more expensive it's going to be. If the job goes through, I'll post pics of the operation.

 

[kshansen]

Not sure what you will need to change to put a truck engine in a 983. Could need to change just about everything short of the heads, and not real sure of that! Don't have any experience with 3406 but I do know 3408's came in Prechamber and Direct Injection versions which I assume would mean the injection pumps and pistons would not be interchangeable.

Not trying to shoot you down just giving a heads up on what you could be getting into. I know some people who have the mindset that if it's painted Cat yellow they are all the same. Ran into this problem in the past with Mack Trucks, we had everything from Gas engined B422's to V-8 Superliners and some bosses thought that as long as there was a dog on the hood they were all the same!

 

[firedozer]

kshansen; I have to agree. A deep knock is not something to just keep running and see if it goes away. It only gets worse and usually in a really bad way. Doing some searching, I found a used running truck engine for $4500 so if it did go really bad, maybe I can go that route. The larger the machine, the more expensive it's going to be. If the job goes through, I'll post pics of the operation.

The 983 B has a Cat D343 engine in it. Nothing like a 3406. The 343 is a double overhead cam engine

 

[CaptainAnalyzer]

The 983 B has a Cat D343 engine in it. Nothing like a 3406. The 343 is a double overhead cam engine

The D342 was installed in the H model D8s correct? I thought the D343 is a strictly marine engine.

 

[Cmark]

983 has a D343.
983B had a 3406.

 

[tctractors]

Fact is I have only worked on a 983 not the later B series with the early Mod being powered via the D343 overhead cam motor, this engine is fitted into heaps of CAT iron 830-M 769,s motor scrapers etc and is a great engine to work on although a bit harder to tackle than the 3406,I would still try to steal the job if it was in the U.K. anyhow I would not muck about looking at big ends and stuff until the engine is whipped out and coming to bits, I would just check its locked up inside by hand then get it free of the frame.
tctractors

 

[BCOWANWHEELS]

Your fixing to learn a good n expensive lesson

 

[overworked]

I agree with TC, Could be a swallowed piston, nothing to do with the crank.

 

[kshansen]

Fact is I have only worked on a 983 not the later B series with the early Mod being powered via the D343 overhead cam motor, this engine is fitted into heaps of CAT iron 830-M 769,s motor scrapers etc and is a great engine to work on although a bit harder to tackle than the 3406,I would still try to steal the job if it was in the U.K. anyhow I would not muck about looking at big ends and stuff until the engine is whipped out and coming to bits, I would just check its locked up inside by hand then get it free of the frame.
tctractors

Agree on the chance anything can be done with it in place is slim to none. Pull it and stand on end have at it! Be sure to post pictures of the damage.

D343, Worked on many of them, most in 988A loaders and a few in original 769 Trucks and also the 4 cylinder version in I believe a 613 scraper. The four banger could make you think there was something wrong when tuning over by hand to set valves or time the pump. Each lobe on the cams were 90º apart so as tip of lobe moved past full open it would snap over center and take up the back lash in the timing gears. Same thing with the V-8 overhead cam engines and they had twice as many timing gears plus those balance weight gears!

 

[tctractors]

kshansen, the 983 any series in the U.K. is not a working track shovel that is going to calve down possibly in my life time, there is still a few about with 1 less than 20 miles from my hovel (S.E.Davis Collection) these shovels are all in private collections now that only get the few days of running usualy at a Show and are well looked after in relation to the work put to them, so this is the reason that I would do my best to steal this engine job as its not going to happen for me here, I have been told about the 4 pot motor but never seen 1 or had the ear ache from 1 but by all accounts I am lucky.
tctractors

 

[tdoats]

So, we started the process of figuring out what went wrong...

for what it is worth, there was never heavy knocking... clicking sound when in septic hole 8 feet deep, brought it out, shut her down. Checked the oil, and the oil was a bit low, so we took the opportunity to change the oil and filters to give her a new fresh start. With new oil change, ticking sound went away and never came back for 20 hours of work finishing that job. 6 months later at the Next job, 2 hours into it - backfilling a culvert hole and backing up with bucket dumping... complete shutdown and lock up. Tried to turn over, to no avail - when I say the engine shut down - it stopped rotating / seized / etc. The CAT was not under load, and was only idling while backing up - nothing major, well except the machine is inoperable.

Triage:
Took the valve covers off the top, no obvious damage.
Adjusted each rocker arm over the push rod and got movement out of everyone but 5 and 6.
Removed the injector lines, and took out the rear rocker arm, all rods moved as expected.
Valves up and seated good.
Nothing out of the ordinary.

Went to the bottom...
Removed the belly plates - those are heavy.
Drained the oil.
Removed the oil pan back and front.
Removed the oil pump assembly, then removed the shield plate.
Inspected each cylinder from underneath - nothing.
Connecting rods, bearings and the mains are ok.
nothing else looks dire or out of place...

So now, we are to the front - geared timing gear and water pump etc
or
to the rear - the transmission, possible to unhook the PTO drive shaft and disconnect the engine from the transmission / rear-end.
Also, have heard rumors that the hydrostatic pump on the rear of the engine passenger side (US) seizes causing this issue - kind of wives tale, anyone heard of that before?

What's next Front, dismantle fan radiator and get to front of engine to see what's what there - trying to find piece of metal locked in gear???
Rear - got to pull the engine to do that, less I disconnect the PTO drive shaft to remove that from the equation...
Or, the Hydrostatic Pump - I can remove it without affecting the timing.

Afraid of touching the diesel pump, doesn't seem to be the issue but understand it to be uniquely in time with the engine...

Thoughts?



Drop the front belly pan and then the oil pan. What happened, did they spin a connecting rod bearing and the mains are ok?

If it is a main, loosen the cap and see if you can roll new bearing shells in, if not can you turn it over with the main cap off, if you can, you may be able to save the crank.

If so, disconnect the bad hole, cut the connecting rod to clear the crank. If it turns over and nothing else looks dire, put the pan back on add fresh oil and get it started.

 

[Welder Dave]

What's all this talk of a hydrostatic pump? A 983B isn't hydrostatic. Do you mean hydraulic pump for the loader?

 

[kshansen]

Will the crank rotate even a couple degrees back and forth? Have you pulled the starter? Try turning crank with barring tool, assume this 3406 has the hole near the starter hole like most. How about pulling injectors to make sure it was not hydro-statically locked up from liquid in a cylinder? Have you pulled filters and cut them open looking for metal? I'd start with the engine and then each and every other filter and suction strainers. If you find one with junk in it you have a direction to go from. Seems likely that before whatever seized there would be some damage that would be spotted in a filter.

Not being familiar with a 983B I'm assuming there is a converter on the rear of engine? with a drive shaft to transmission.