1. Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!

75/25 or 90/10 for welding loader arm?

Discussion in 'Shop Talk' started by Steve Bowman, Jan 2, 2019.

  1. Steve Bowman

    Steve Bowman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2018
    Messages:
    123
    Occupation:
    Maintenance
    Location:
    Southern Ohio
    Well, my impatience and ADD has kept me busy while waiting on the 71M wire.

    As I mentioned, I am also building a quick attach for this loader. I think have the pieces I need mocked up with wood. They will be cut from 3/8 plate with the exception of the main crossmember shown. It will be two 2" sq tubes side by side.

    20190110_193342.jpg 20190110_193358.jpg 20190110_193406.jpg


    Thoughts? Go back to solid wire, or stick with the 71M? The plates for the quick attach brackets are about .300.
     
  2. Jonas302

    Jonas302 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    458
    Location:
    mn
    Looks amazing but that wood is not going to weld very well :) Honestly though once you get the dual shield wire tuned in you will be amazed how well it works on a project like that
     
  3. Steve Bowman

    Steve Bowman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2018
    Messages:
    123
    Occupation:
    Maintenance
    Location:
    Southern Ohio
    Thanks.

    I do have bosses made already that will weld onto the outside of the plates where the pins go. Not just relying on the plate for pin support.

    One thing I don't really like is the locking levers pull up to lock. Things just didn't work out with them pulling up to unlock, like most machines. The substantial cross-member required for my single tilt cylinder was necessary.
     
  4. Junkyard

    Junkyard Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2016
    Messages:
    2,662
    Occupation:
    Field Mechanic
    Location:
    Claremore, OK
    Dual shield is hard to beat. We use it a lot at work building our own tooling etc. You can lay down a nice bead and really put some heat down too.
     
  5. Steve Bowman

    Steve Bowman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2018
    Messages:
    123
    Occupation:
    Maintenance
    Location:
    Southern Ohio
    At the risk of irritating the experts, wonder where will I be able to use up the 10lbs 71T-GS I was given? Surely it has some value too. But, on the other hand, 25lbs of 71M will likely last a while around my place.


    Also, with the gussets I have planned to strengthen my crossmember assy, I am wondering about wall thickness on the 2x2 tubes. 1/4 should be fine, I suppose. Or, possibly just one rectangle 4x2
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 2:03 AM
  6. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2016
    Messages:
    675
    Location:
    Cal
    Steve,
    I would stay with 75/25% as you have that already. CO2 requires higher voltage setting to maintain arch transfer compared to 75/25% gas mix, i.e. will lower your duty cycle with the Millermatic 210. NOT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.

    Pre-machined pin bushings: If you have two bores in alignment requires using a alignment mandrel 0.005" smaller inside diameter than the machined bore diameter. Cat manufactured thousands of buckets (up 980 sized loaders and excavator buckets) using pre-machined bushings.

    Welding the bushings is referred to as 'pre-set' welding. You follow a circular weld sequence pattern and continuously turn the mandrel and slide the mandrel back and forth to determine by hand-feel weld shrinkage caused miss alignment.

    Alignment and Repair of your loader's arms will require using a similar approach, IMO.
     
  7. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,632
    Location:
    Canada
    The loader arms will require close attention to detail while being welded and most likely need some tweaking with a hyd. jack, come-a-long and/or heat to get the pins to go in smoothly after completion. Weld pulls one way, line up pin is tight, cools off pin is tight the other way. I'd be more worried about getting the loader arms fixed so they work before I spent a bunch of money on a quick attach.

    The roll of GS flux core could be used for anything that just sits there and doesn't take a lot of loading. If you wanted to build a table or some shelves or something light duty it would work.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 6:18 AM
  8. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2016
    Messages:
    675
    Location:
    Cal
    Yep...Steve thinks a bit about the arms, IMO...job done:cool: onto fab-ing a attachment.

    No loading, HA, HA...Cat (and Komatsu) products fab'd with L50, no impact loading specified, buckets, quick attachments, grippers, shears, ripper frames, dozer blades etc. Manufacturing uses the most economical weld filler material as per engineering design specifications.
    Couple of example photos.
    Photo1.jpg Photo2.jpg
    Mig spray arch, L50-CO2 downhand Cat Work Tools-Wamego
    Robot Welded, L50-CO2 horizontal downhand
    Photo12.jpg

    FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS BLINDLY equals Standard ISO, ANSI shop floor procedures worldwide; shop prints with symbols-control boxes, sometimes short written descriptions by engineering. Raw materials to finish products...employees' job description IS to follow instructions that are not > BLINDLY sent to the shop floor, LOL Robots don't have opinions, pi$$ed girlfriends or wives, disappointing childhoods; programming, maintenance and repeat welding...

    Ebay welding wires: 71M is packaged in cardboard box and warped with plastic bag. In pi$$ poor storage condition for 12 months soaking up moisture. Good deal gone bad, LOL

    @ Steve, Airgas Ohio dose not stock 71M; hard to believe your nose did not hit your keyboard typing that statement :D:rolleyes:
     
    DB2 likes this.
  9. Steve Bowman

    Steve Bowman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2018
    Messages:
    123
    Occupation:
    Maintenance
    Location:
    Southern Ohio
    They said they did have a roll of Bohler 71M in .045, but the .035 I saw on the shelf was all -11. My next choice vendor also did not have any 71M stocked in .035. They also discouraged the 100% co2, said it would be colder. Anyway, learned a little.

    Thanks for the fabrication tips. I won't bother with the co2. Sounds like more trouble than it's worth.

    I do hope I have good results with the ends of my loader arms.
     
  10. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,632
    Location:
    Canada

    If it's Lincoln L-50 Mig wire it has impact values at O deg's. F with CO2. Still better than t-11 flux-core. Lincoln has or used to have a special L-56 with impact values at -40 or -50.
     
  11. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2016
    Messages:
    675
    Location:
    Cal
    Dave,
    L50/CO2 spec -0deg CVN = not specified.

    CO2-solid wire vertical up is difficult to use compared to 71M.
     
  12. Steve Bowman

    Steve Bowman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2018
    Messages:
    123
    Occupation:
    Maintenance
    Location:
    Southern Ohio
    Wow!

    Thank you, thank you. Just running some tests to get settings close and this wire just runs so smoothe.

    I spent most of the morning installing a fume extraction fan i have wanted to do for quite some time. And after you mentioning the additional smoje from the flux core, i figured no time like right now.

    I have some other stuff to do today(genset) and dont think i will have time to finish. So, rather than preheat twice, i will start early tomorrow with that.

    Thanks again for the advice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 5:55 PM
  13. Steve Bowman

    Steve Bowman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2018
    Messages:
    123
    Occupation:
    Maintenance
    Location:
    Southern Ohio
    Oh, on my Millermatic 210 running the .035 70M vertical. I am running wire on setting 65 which is about 440 in/min and volts on 6, which is about 25 volts loaded - 32v open. 35 cfm 75/25. 3/4 stickout.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 6:32 PM
  14. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2016
    Messages:
    675
    Location:
    Cal
    Try 23.5-24 volts, 75/25% should run 1-1.5 volts lower than straight CO2. Mig contact tip should be recessed 1/8", not flush with edge of the nozzle. Use that distance for stickout.

    If you're not in a air draft try lowering gas flow to 30Cfm.
    I use a flow meter that attaches to the mig gun's nozzle to measure cfm delivered. Pricey $70.00 calibrated plastic tube and rubber cup, but eliminates all of the variables like different flow meter model orifices, wire feeders etc.

    If you start getting worm-gas marks refer to this Lincoln article:
    https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-...ns/Pages/gas-marks-on-fcaw-process-welds.aspx

    @ sweet spot, you'll hear a 'hiss', low smoke, sparks and the flux will self peel or just require a tiny tap.

    Have fun

    PS, Lincoln's Welding Solutions / handy reference
    https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-solutions/Pages/welding-solutions.aspx
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 8:47 PM
    DB2 and Steve Bowman like this.
  15. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,632
    Location:
    Canada
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019 at 7:37 AM
  16. StanRUS

    StanRUS Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2016
    Messages:
    675
    Location:
    Cal
    Yep, CFH; my brain was thinking D8N engine-torque overheating radiator issues on another thread...OP or myself haven't asked how much PSI should the shielding gas be?

    Tech support...where did you come up with 20-25 CFH for 71M per OP's post #71 references? Per Lincoln's pdf spec is: Flow Rate is 40-50CFH

    Hobart's Excel-Arc 71 flow rate is 35-50CFH
    https://www.hobartbrothers.com/uploads/pdf/datasheets/FabCO_Excel_Arc71.pdf

    EASB's 7100 Ultra no flow rate given
    https://mam.esab.com:8443/assets/1/...E98A512E1F1D4/237-en_US-FactSheet_Main-01.pdf

    I cross reference different manufactures' procedure spec's for similar wires. Carry 71M, Excel-Arc71 spools in the service truck for different wire feeders and jobs.

    40-50CFM @ max recommend gas flow. Using lower gas flow rate helps prevent sucking atmospheric nitrogen into the molten weld puddle AND simply wasting gas to increase jobbers', retailers' profits.

    71M coupons pass x-ray (Miller Electric, Rancho Cucamonga, Calif) using 25-35CFH 75/25%...i received structural engineering's prints that did not spec ASW or ASME codes, just 1/4" leg on fillet welds. Shop fab was easy and certified. Field erection, the cert welding inspector was okay with changing from 1/8"-5/32" 7018 but wanted certs for using 71M to cover his a$$. Easy to increase weld strength by 100% by running one pass on the ID's of column connectors. Owner-engineering always spec 'as built'; allows on the fly design changes-adjustments.
     
  17. Steve Bowman

    Steve Bowman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2018
    Messages:
    123
    Occupation:
    Maintenance
    Location:
    Southern Ohio
    True, but aren't most of them fixed psi? I will say that the flowmeter regulators I have do not have low pressure gages, and appear to not be adjustable. I believe they state 50 psi on the side. However, I do have a more traditional regulator with the LP gage, but no flow meter. I think it is the one that actually came with my welder.

    As you suggested Stan, i dropped my voltage back a notch and tried some passes. Spatter/noise increased. I tried more/less wire with no improvement, so back to the higher setting (6) for me. My dad was there sharpening some knives and commented on how quiet it was.
    I did get a little worm hole defect in there somewhere, but it was at the very top of my test and close to my fume pickup, so perhaps it was effecting the shield gas a little. I also dropped my flow down a little - so about 30 now, and i pulled my nozzle off just a little - tip is flush with the nozzle fully seated.

    Breakfast finished, now off to start the preheat.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019 at 12:18 PM
  18. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,632
    Location:
    Canada
    My bad on the gas flow. Was thinking of a different wire where too a high a gas flow can cause turbulence. A lot of shops are starting to use the gas flow meters right at the nozzle because some wires are real finnicky with gas flow. Steve, make sure you have the wire running properly before you jump right in on your repair. Don't have the fume extractor so close it sucks your shielding gas away. Did you get some line up pins made and have bracing in place to keep the holes as close as possible? Flowmeters have preset pressure, 50 PSI is common but the outlet should be CFH.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019 at 4:54 PM