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580K Won't Move

Discussion in 'Tractor/Loader/Backhoes' started by Willie B, Jul 30, 2022.

  1. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

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    I've done what I advise others to never do. I sold a backhoe to a friend. 16 months ago, I sold this machine to a good friend. It has given trouble, I feel I wouldn't have had. The bolts loosened up where the dipper end attaches to the rest of the dipper. I had them loosen up years ago, so I cleaned everything up replaced the bolts, used red Loctite & torqued the Hell out of them. They stayed tight years through some very heavy duty hoe work. I worked on it again dismantling the whole assembly, steam cleaning it all, then degreaser. I replaced bolts again, this time coating mating surfaces & bolts with Loctite. I added key stock across the heads of the 7/8" cap screws welded to bolt heads.
    He lost a snap ring on the pin that holds the extend a hoe cylinder & didn't notice until the pin fell out entirely. That proved a big project!
    Now he reports torque converter slips when hot. I checked it today. Hard to get accurate fluid level but it seems to have plenty of fluid, no evidence of leaks. No movement at all, forward or back.
    I didn't have time or tools today to get into diagnostics, not sure it's torque converter.
    I had the Case dealer correct a leaky torque converter 5 years ago, no leaks since, no slipping.......until now.
     
  2. cosmaar1

    cosmaar1 Senior Member

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    I can’t help with the problem, but 16 months is a lot different than 2 weeks. I would feel bad if something happened then, but not after almost 1.5 years.

    Secondly, it’s a used machine and anything can happen at any time. I applaud you for helping, but it’s used!!!
     
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  3. Tinkerer

    Tinkerer Senior Member

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    My thought's too !
     
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  4. Finca SDR

    Finca SDR Well-Known Member

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    If it doesn't move at all forward or back that sounds electric. But you probably know that. If it moves some but real crappy then it's an oil squirt. But you probably know that.

    I have a relay that jiggles loose on my 580L and then I'm stuck dead in the water.
     
  5. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

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    There is an electric solenoid valve I had to replace on the first 580K Serves as a clutch. If I recall, it failed in run. I had to use neutral at the shuttle control to stop it until it was fixed.

    Manual doesn't offer much in troubleshooting. It says begin diagnosis by changing oil. There is a specialty tool replaces the starter to turn the engine with a wrench until the torque converter drain lines up with the hole in the housing. Then, put three quarts in, start the engine, add four quarts. Then warm the torque converter up & top up to dipstick level.

    Cold, it was full by the dipstick, but the torque converter being a centrifugal device, I wonder if it needs much more oil. No evidence it leaks & it worked fine until now.
     
  6. Tags

    Tags Senior Member

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    I may be mistaken, but I thought some of the 580Ks had issues with the axles stripping out the splines where they go into the transaxle, hopefully it is not that and it’s just the clutch cut out switch or something relatively simple.

    On a side note, friend or not, it was used and it’s been a while since he bought it. You can’t help if he’s ignorant to checking over the equipment for lost clips or pins or loose bolts, that’s all part of owning equipment.
     
  7. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

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    It's 20 miles from my tools. I'll go through the process of ruling out the obvious issues, then refer him to a mechanic. It won't even be fun to load on the trailer, It won't move on its own power.
     
  8. westerner

    westerner Well-Known Member

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    The K I had quit moving after I used the neutralizer button on the front bucket joystick. No forward, no reverse, nothing.
    Turns out the solenoid valve under the floor stuck mechanically. Power to the solenoid from the button worked just fine.
    The spool in the valve would not return to the closed position.
     
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  9. Finca SDR

    Finca SDR Well-Known Member

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    Cool glad it was nothing mechanical
     
  10. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

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    Update:
    I didn't want to go through the whole process of changing the oil, it's a big job. I tried warming it up. The dipstick is a real challenge to read. After adding oil the tube lays nearly horizontal, only by curving the dipstick just right can I slide it in without getting a false reading from the residual in the dip/fill tube. Ultimately, I had to add about 6 quarts to get a proper level on the stick engine running, shuttle hot & parked level. All works fine now!
    I think it now wants a fluid change, hasn't been changed since the dealer changed it maybe 5 years ago. I'm not sure if it has a filter.
    I can't figure how it ran low on oil, no oil on the ground, underside of the shuttle is clean. I ran it 3+years without symptoms such as this, checked it numerous times. My son is self appointed expert on transmission level checking, always telling me "it has to be hot, level & running to check. That oil is clear & watery, NOT easy to read on a dipstick!
     
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  11. Tinkerer

    Tinkerer Senior Member

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    I had hydraulic oil that was as clear as water and couldn't see it in a sight glass.
    John Deere sells small bottles of oil dye and that ended the problem.
     
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  12. HarleyHappy

    HarleyHappy Well-Known Member

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    Always have a problem on my 580E as dipstick pipe must be same. Originally had shuttle problems and was getting false reading on dipstick when idling and warm in 4th gear with engine hammering in your ears. Finally added about 4 quarts and one after the other and still same on dipstick I realized it needed more. After that I’ve kept a hard focus under machine for leaks as I have a small pump leak and some cylinders in the hoe.
     
  13. Tinkerer

    Tinkerer Senior Member

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    This is from the 580K Operators Manual. FWIW.
    1.png 2.png
     
  14. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

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    Thank you. I feel you are talking about the next gearbox. I'm at this time concerned about the torque converter & shuttle.
    I'll need to research, I think the fluid they are talking of is thick gear oil. The shuttle/torque converter is using a very light nearly invisible oil.
    Case doesn't do much to explain how many places you need to check oil. I think you service engine oil, shuttle oil, then transaxle oil.
    Case says it will be catastrophic if you don't use their recommended oil, but make no mention, even in an updated manual that the required oil is no longer offered. These days, the dealer recommends HyTran.
     
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  15. Tinkerer

    Tinkerer Senior Member

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    Sorry I went brain dead and forgot you were referring to the shuttle.

    The shuttle in the K's with the dipstick by the engine should have the engine running, up to operating temperature, brakes on.
    With the shuttle in either forward or reverse, to stop the gears from spinning.
    That prevents oil from splashing in the case.
    My 680 uses the same procedure. I unknowingly ran it low on oil for a very long time and was not checking it like I described above. Whenever I tried to drive up a 3 1/2 to 1 or steeper slope the shuttle lurched in and out of gear. The correct oil level stopped the lurching.
    The oil check procedure was in the service manual, but it was very hard to find where it was in it.
     
  16. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

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    Yeah, it is not easy. I'm still not clear whether it has to be in gear while checking, seems dangerous to leave it in gear while this is all going on.
     
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  17. Tinkerer

    Tinkerer Senior Member

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    The procedure I described is for the early K's with the Borg Warner shuttle.
    The same shuttle was used in the early John Deere 310's. It uses the same oil check procedure. FWIW.
    I stab the backhoe bucket teeth in the ground for added assurance it won't move.
    The oil level was much higher on the dipstick before I read about checking it in gear, engine idling.
    Strangely the 580K Operators Manual I have makes no mention of the oil check procedure.
     
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  18. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

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    It took a bit of research. I'm not sure I have the operator's manual. The troubleshooting manual is BRIEF! all they say is begin with a fluid change. Remove the starter, insert the specialty tool (I've had 15 years) to rotate the torque converter to align the drain.
    Drain it.
    New fluid, have 8 quarts ready. put in three. Start the engine, put in four. Run it HARD until gauge reads HOT. With engine running on level surface add the final quart a bit at a time while checking dipstick.
     
  19. Tinkerer

    Tinkerer Senior Member

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    This is from the 580K phase 1 service manual.
    I can't believe I missed seeing this a very long time ago.
    Step 8&9 in the change section details the convertor drain procedure.
    shut1.png shut2.png
     
  20. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

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    Now I think I want to offer this information to the new owner & let him worry about the oil change. It has probably been about 1000 hours since the dealer did it for me. I wonder if running low caused the oil to heat.
    It's kind of a big deal to change & I've gone above & beyond with repairing stuff that shouldn't have needed to be repaired.
    He said before he bought it "I know you wouldn't cheat me."
    I explained: "No, I wouldn't cheat you, but you do realize this is NOT a new machine."
    What I can't figure out is it went off to the dealer because it was leaking & I felt the repair could better be handled by a trained mechanic. It was roughly $1000. I'm not exactly sure what was done, I presume a new seal. It hasn't leaked since, doesn't leak now. Fluid level has been checked many times since & found to be fine. WHERE DID THE OIL GO?