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471 Detroit Diesel

Discussion in 'Forestry Equipment' started by Ciggie, Jan 9, 2019.

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  1. Ciggie

    Ciggie Member

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    I have a 1968 471 and it was rebuilt around 4000 hrs ago. The machine ran great until today. I wanted to install a inline heater core in the bottom of the rad hose. That went fine. I refilled the rad with coolant and let it idle for 30 mins with the cap off to get out any air... I thought I was was good to go work it a bit and noticed a bit of white smoke from exhaust pipe. I thought the fan was spraying the spilled coolant on to the pipe. So I kept going, the temp gauge didnt move off 100. And 5 mins later I stopped and it stalled. I believe it overheated. And the thesostate never opened. After I let it cool down I restarted it . And added more coolant. I pumped the top rad hose to help get fuild though the engine. I got it home and now it smokes like crazy. Please tell me what happened. Is it a head gasket? I think noticed oil leaking from exhaust but could be carbon and antifreeze. Any help would be much appreciated
    Thanks
    Ciggie
     
  2. Tenwheeler

    Tenwheeler Senior Member

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    Air locks in the top of the engine are not uncommon after engine work. If coolant can not circulate the thermostat and temperature sending unit are in a locked air pocket. They are made to function in water not air. The thermostat with not open and the gauge will not tell you the engine is hot.
    Sounds like it ran hot scoring a cylinder or causing piston rings to loose tension.
     
  3. Ciggie

    Ciggie Member

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    Ok thanks that sounds like bad news.. I will monitor oil level and coolant level to see if there are any changes.
    Thanks
    Again.
     
  4. Former Wrench

    Former Wrench Senior Member

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    Find a pipe plug or fitting at the highest location. Bleed air from there.
     
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  5. kshansen

    kshansen Senior Member

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    I wish I could say something good about this but any time an engine stalls and smokes when restarted it sure is not a good sign.

    Tenwheel very well could be right and also I would be very worried about a cracked head.

    Below is a parts book drawing of a typical 4-71 Detroit water manifold showing the thermostat. Not the petcock circled in red that needs to be open when filling the radiator to bleed off any air in the system. Sometimes the petcock is replaced with a hose to the top radiator tank or even a pipe plug.

    If it has a hose to the top radiator tank I would remove the hose and make sure air and coolant vents out of the hole in the housing. Same thing if there is a plug in the hole remove and bleed out air till you get a good flow of coolant.
    4-71 water manifold02.jpg

    Actually now that I look at the drawing there is a second #9 petcock in the end of the cover that the hose to the top tank is connected. I would also open that one to bleed off air and coolant. The one in the red circle would be more critical to get air trapped out of the engine and let coolant reach the thermostat!
     
  6. lg junior

    lg junior Well-Known Member

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    If this is the motor from your 666B as in your other post, it would be a 4-53. Completely different motor. The 666B's have a surge tank with a system fill line and a bleed line to remove the air from the system. And Clark changed the thermostat housing to help prevent some of the cooling problems the older machines had. Not saying that it couldn't have air locked, but I would be skeptical. It sure sounds like you seized a piston. In the shop foremans desk at the detroit dealer years ago was a stack of stickers that everyone with a 2 stroke detroit should have. They read something like this MAXIMUM IDLE TIME 3 MINUTES. SEVERE ENGINE DAMAGE MAY OCCUR FROM PROLONGED IDLE TIME. I got involved in two yarder engine failures. Both seized cylinder kits. When asked how long their last road changed was they both answered 2 hours. And they both idled the hole time. Two Detroits overhauled that should have run a lot longer. I'm curious though please post some pictures.
     
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  7. 075

    075 Senior Member

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    We had an 044 12 V 71 twin turbo that was parked for a bit. It was the donkey doctors habit to start it up from time time just to keep the engine oiled up. Any way one day he started it up and was called away on a call . Long story short he forgot he left it running and that engine ran until the main fuel tank was empty . We put it back to work a short time after that the engine was gummed up but ran for another 5 years after that .
     
  8. lg junior

    lg junior Well-Known Member

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    Mid eighties I hauled logs for a company that left their loader run all night. I really expected it to have a meltdown before they finished that job. It was a 4-53T with real low hours, I always assumed that was why it outlived that company and the next company that owned it.
    The two Detroits that I personally seized were lower motors in rubber mount log loaders. Both happened loading right of way logs. Being always in a hurry, I never wanted to wait a few seconds for the air to build up to release the brakes. Was a costly mistake. I learned two good lessons on the first one. Don't be a cheap gyppo and only replace one cylinder kit. Because within a month you'll be into the motor again replacing the kits you were to cheap and lazy to replace the first go around. In hind sight I would have been money ahead to overhaul it before I put to work. But dad and I overhauled not that long ago? (fifteen years before).
    One of the two yarders I had mentioned earlier I know was high hours . An 8V92. The owner called me I swear fifteen times that day needing a diagnosis. Black smoke and loss of power.
    He finally held his phone out and said it's doing it again. You could hear it bog down and this time it stopped. Then panic followed."How are we going to get the carriage down." I told him to just be patient and let it cool down and if your lucky it will fire up. Next call was it's running and we've got the turn in now what. They pulled the motor and I went to the autopsy. They ended up installing another motor.
    In extreme cases I've seen the piston stick bad enough to pull the top off the liner. The liner gets sucked down the hole and hits the con rod first. Con rod not happy and leaves the block, game over.
    Still my favorite motor, any size, any application. I still have 7 old 2 strokes and some Series 60's. I've had a few of the other brands but I lean towards the green ones.
     
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  9. Ciggie

    Ciggie Member

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    I decided to pull the head off and have a look and this is what I found, I have an idea on a repair on the cylinder block. Sending it to a machine shop is not an option. My idea is to machine a thin steel washer that sit flush with block and put an Oring inside the washer so it will still crush when the head goes back on... any other ideas i would love to hear..
    Thanks all.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Tenwheeler

    Tenwheeler Senior Member

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    That sounds like a good fix for the damaged block area on that coolant port. What does that have to do with smokes like crazy ( exhaust ? ) and oil from the exhaust?
     
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  11. RZucker

    RZucker Senior Member

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    With all new seal rings that should not be an issue. If anything a very thin ring to go around the O.D. of the water ring might be of some help. I would use copper or brass to compress when the head is torqued.
     
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  12. RZucker

    RZucker Senior Member

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    Could have popped a wrist pin retainer, or if it has Crosshead type pistons it burned out the seal ring between the crown and skirt.
     
  13. Ciggie

    Ciggie Member

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  14. Ciggie

    Ciggie Member

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    I was having the smoke issues before and realized it was a head gasket, I installed head gasket fix in the rad and that stopped the smoke... but it was still over heating and there was pressure in the coolent system and would empty out of the top of the rad... I just decided to pull the head and have a look...
    Thanks
     
  15. Vetech63

    Vetech63 Senior Member

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    Im not sure you have found your problem. Oring failures on the head usually lead to coolant in the oil pan. Compression in the cooling system usually comes from head cracks, or compression leakage in through the seating of the injector cooling tube. Did you happen to flip over your cylinder head and look for cracks? You will usually find them between the valves, and sometimes at the cooling tube itself. Use a good wire brush and clean off the carbon between the valves when you check for cracks. They are usually pretty obvious when you see them.
     
  16. Ciggie

    Ciggie Member

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    Ok great advise thanks I will look at the head today
    Thanks
    Ciggie
     
  17. kshansen

    kshansen Senior Member

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    Always hard to diagnose from a distance and even with good pictures can be very much a guessing game. That said, I'm very concerned about the chunk missing out of the block at about 8 o'clock in the last picture. Not sure what caused that and if the damage goes under the liner flange.

    Also agree the head needs to be inspected very close for cracks. Also I would be checking very close for scoring in the liners from over heating.

    Been a few years since I had a head off a Detroit 53 or 71 was the question of this being a 4-53 or 4-71 every answered?
     
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  18. RZucker

    RZucker Senior Member

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    This is more than likely a cracked head. Should have been in the first post. This is why it is so hard to help people online when the full story come out in dribs and drabs.
     
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  19. Former Wrench

    Former Wrench Senior Member

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    I know it was said no machine shop, but I would do a magnaflux hit on it before making any decisions.
     
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  20. Ciggie

    Ciggie Member

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