330CL Starting issue ???

[Cat_man320]

My 330cl has a C9 Cat engine and runs fine , don't burn any oil and has plenty of power . My problem is that it doesn't want to start.
It spins and spins and doesn't fire . when it first happened , I was thinking compression as I got about 10,000 hrs on it now but I don't think that's the problem . I can start it the coldest day in the winter and sometimes the first flick of the key on a hot summers day but other times it will not start at all . I had the Cat service people come and do the computer checks with the lap top etc , The bitch started every time for them and they found no faults in anything....computers . fuel , injectors pumps etc etc . I replaced the check valve at the back of the head but no difference . QUESTION , Why will it start with a little spray of quick start ? It has new batterys , new starter and spins plenty fast , What is the line that goes from the front of the cyl head near the water pump and goes and screws into the ECM that's bolted on the side of the engine?. There is also what looks like some kind of pressure switch in this line too . So is it fuel running in this line or motor oil? I thinks it has something to do with this pressure switch and when the pressure builds up it trips the injectors to fire ? Just looking for opinions of what could be going on , especially where the cat dealer found no faults .

 

[Bob/Ont]

Dirty oil will make them hard to start. There is a plug on the harness you can change for different viscosity oils you are using. The line to the ECM is fuel for cooling it.
Later Bob

 

[Cat_man320]

Dirty oil will make them hard to start. There is a plug on the harness you can change for different viscosity oils you are using. The line to the ECM is fuel for cooling it.
Later Bob

Thanks Bob, again lol . I have changed the motor oil and filters a few times but still didn't changed anything . So would a heavier viscosity help the starting ? I know the motor oil is used for firing the injector but I think it's the electronic part of the injectors is not getting a signal to let the fuel in/out. I know very little about this and just trying to grasp what's happening . makes me wonder though why The Cat dealer never found a fault code or something just a tad off making the engine hard to start . Why it starts with a shot of quick start tells me there is no fuel or electronics is not being activated there but why is it that the engine fires right after the quick start ?

 

[Bob/Ont]

Thick oil makes harder starting but it's consistent. Intermittant leads me to think wiring but that should set a code. I wonder if the HUEI pump is failing? Some of them have bearing problems I think.
Later Bob

 

[Nige]

What viscosity oil are you using right now..?

With 10k hours on the engine I would bet money that the injectors are starting to fail. Have they ever been replaced..? As Bob says maybe the HEUI pump is also bad.

The way these engines fire up all depends on the hydraulic pressure generated in the injector operation circuit by the HEUI Pump. The ECM calculates a "Desired Injection Actuation Pressure" depending on various factors and compares that value to the Actual Injection Actuation Pressure as the engine is spinning over on the starter. Only when the Actual pressure exceeds the Desired pressure do the electronics come out to play and fire up the injectors. Until that point there will be no smoke from the chimney. I suspect that your issue is internal leakage somewhere in the injection actuation circuit (possibly injectors, possibly HEUI pump) and what happens when you give it a whiff of ether it just turns over a hair faster on the starter and as a result the HEUI pressure comes up just a fraction more than it did with the starter alone which is enough to make the Actual pressure exceed the Desired pressure and away she goes.

I predict the problem will only get worse until you reach a point where even ether won't get it going.

 

[Hawkeye]

I have a 324DL that acted like this for sometime and ended up not starting at all. Turned out to be the ecm going bad and losing fuel settings but not doing it all the time.

 

[Joe Mahh]

Thick oil makes harder starting but it's consistent. Intermittant leads me to think wiring but that should set a code. I wonder if the HUEI pump is failing? Some of them have bearing problems I think.
Later Bob

Can you explain more about that plug?

 

[Joe Mahh]

My 330cl has difficulty to start, it’s cranking, but not willing to start. I had a issue showing “low engine oil pressure”, I got a new senor from CAT, but when I change it, it shows the same error, after google the problem realized that the distribution of the new part is different from the old part, then I change the distribution, the that “low engine oil pressure” gone. After running for 10minutes, engine stopped by itself without any warning, then he don’t want to start

 

[Joe Mahh]

That’s how I changed the distribution

 

[Nige]

What you have in your hand is a 3-pin Deutsch connector.
Without any more context (for example what it connects to and why you pulled the pins out of it) it's impossible to say more about what it does.

Why not start with a few basics like ........... Machine Serial Number, how many hours on the machine, engine oil pressure sensor Part Number (old & new), has it ever had an injection pump or injectors replaced...?
BTW I love the optimism of a Low Oil Pressure warning - must be the sensor.

 

[Joe Mahh]

My 330CL Serial number is:
CYA00557, working hours:15409.
Now the main issue is the engine is cranking but not firing, when is cranking the engine oil pressure raise from 3 psi to 8 psi, but it’s not starting

 

[Nige]

Still need the answers to ......
More info regarding the electrical connector in your photo.
engine oil pressure sensor Part Number (old & new),
has the engine ever had an injection pump or injectors replaced...?

The engine oil pressure (8psi during cranking) that you see in the lubrication system is NOT what operates the fuel injection system. That is operated by a high-pressure hydraulic pump. The Injection Actuation Pressure (IAP) sensor measures the pressure from that pump and is the signal from that sensor that activates the electronic system to fire the injectors during cranking. The attached document will walk you through how the system functions, the IAP sensor is #9 on the first illustration.

 

[Joe Mahh]

Checking

 

[Joe Mahh]

Checking

 

[Joe Mahh]

Engine oil pressure sensor part numberld 161-1705, new one161-1704, we didn’t change any injection pump or injector

 

[Joe Mahh]

I can’t find the IAP from the machine

 

[Joe Mahh]

Pls r u there? Or we can chat by whatsapp? My number:+233543439220

 

[Nige]

IAP sensor is on the LH side of the engine which I'm fairly sure is the back as it's installed in the machine. Ref #8 in the illustration.

 

[Nige]

Oil pressure sensors. 161-1704 is the correct one for your Serial Number machine/engine.
The sensors have been updated, new sensor Part # is 274-6719. It has a different design of connector so it requires a 237-0227 Connector to install on the engine wiring harness to make everything fit. I think that is what you are referring to.

Honestly speaking with 15,000+ hours on the engine with no previous replacements my suspicion is that probably the HEUI hydraulic pump or the injectors (or both) are probably pretty well worn out. In fact with 15,409 total hours on the machine the engine is probably ready for an overhaul also.

Find the IAP sensor, remove it temporarily, install a 4000psi pressure gauge (that's right - 4000), crank the starter and see what pressure you get on the gauge.

 

[funwithfuel]

Nige, could we possibly have a bad engine position sensor? The OP states, "no error codes " if the ECM doesn't know the engine is turning, it won't log a code. Right?