//// 1999 International Internal coolant leak ?? ////

[Andyinchville]

HI All,

My helper overheated the engine (DT 466E in my International 4700 truck).

After overheating, the truck started using coolant (has to fill about 2 or 3 inches of coolant into the resovoir tank per day but no steam out exhaust pipe).

Oil is NOT milky so no coolant in the oil BUT dipstick showed signs of moisture / rust towards the top of the stick.

Running that way for awhile and then the truck started to miss so we assumed head gasket blew and parked it.

Helper noticed signs of coolant residue on passenger side of block towards the rear.

We hope it's just a head gasket and started taking the engine down BUT later I read that it is possible to have leaks on the bottom of the removable cylinder liners ....

How can you tell if is leaking from the bottom of the liners ?

I'd hate to change a head gasket and put it all together only to find it is leaking on a cylinder liner and have to take it all apart again....

Is it possible to just change out the bottom liner seals without having to take out pistons etc?

I know a rebulid is possible to do when sooo far apart but engine was fine until overheat and I am not made of $$ so If I can cure the problem with just a head gasket that'd be great BUT if I also need liner seals I cuuld do that too BUT I am just trying to get it back on the road for a minimum of $$ and time.

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Andrew

 

[John C.]

You need to check the liner protrusions. Liners stick up a little bit above the level of the block. The head gaskets go on top and then the head presses down on the gasket holding both in place and sealing the compression in the cylinders and the fluids passages. The liners themselves sit on a ledge in the block. Over time the liners vibrate slightly causing the ledges to wear or beat down slightly and the liner sink a little in the block. If they sink low enough the head gasket will not seal properly and you get compression and fluid leaks. You check the liners by making some clamps that will bolt to the block and hold down the liner. A protrusion gauge is then used. Generally speaking most engines with liners will protrude one to five thousands above the engine block. There usually needs to be no more two thousands difference between any liner as well.

You didn't say how many miles were on this engine. Usually in an overheat situation it is prudent to send the head into a rebuilder and have it checked for cracks. At this point you really need to accomplish some due diligence and weigh the risks of just throwing some gaskets at it and sending it back down the road again.

 

[funwithfuel]

I would just pull the engine oil pan and pressurize the cooling system to try and identify where the coolant is coming from. if it's coming from an oil return off the top end you will see it if it's coming from around the liner you'll see that too since it'll be dripping down you can follow it back to its source
either way you're going to want to follow johnc's advice because whether it's the head or the liner you're still going to have to head off and that had is going to have to be checked

 

[kshansen]

I would just pull the engine oil pan and pressurize the cooling system to try and identify where the coolant is coming from. if it's coming from an oil return off the top end you will see it if it's coming from around the liner you'll see that too since it'll be dripping down you can follow it back to its source
either way you're going to want to follow johnc's advice because whether it's the head or the liner you're still going to have to head off and that had is going to have to be checked

But unless the pan is impossible to drop in frame don't jump too fast to tear it apart. Like funwithfuel says drop pan and try to determine where the leak is before tearing the head off.

 

[Andyinchville]

HI All,

I think my helper is at the point of head removal BUT per some thoughts here it seems as though we should put the thermostat housing back on so we can pressurize the cooling system more easily (We can neck down a hose to allow a compressed air hose to pressurize the block).

I'm not sure if there is enough space to drop the oil pan without other work (raising the engine up) but we can try that...

Just curious but if we do drop the pan and pressurize the block, if we do not see any seepage from the liner seals I assume we should be OK at that point and simply proceed with removing the head gasket and making sure the head is OK ( I assume that is a machine shop only situation or can one determine if the head is OK or not by simply using a known straight edge and "seeing" if the underside of the head is flat ?).

In a worse case scenario ( if a leak / seepage is seen on a liner seal) how is a seal replaced? .... I assume the piston and con rod would have to be removed before the liner can be pulled out ? or can it be done without piston removal but I guess probably has to come out and so a ring compression tool can be used (how is the liner pulled out?...I assume tapping from the bottom with a brass punch and hammer ?....I guess they are in there tight ?).

Thanks

Andrew

 

[RZucker]

But unless the pan is impossible to drop in frame don't jump too fast to tear it apart. Like funwithfuel says drop pan and try to determine where the leak is before tearing the head off.

Before I jerk the pan, I usually just drain the oil and leave a pan under the drain hole overnight with the cooling system pressurized to 5-6 lbs. over the cap rating. Odd thing is the last three leakers I had showed no milk in the oil, Maybe the low emissions oil holds it in suspension? One did show "chocolate mousse" in the fill tube and that was about it, using a gallon of coolant per day...liner seals in the number 5 hole on a month old inframe. that truck rode the hook back to the outfit that did the inframe. Another was an ISX Cummins using a gallon of coolant per day... Liner O-rings. Opened the crankcase breather housing and got a quart of glycol out of it. Again no milk in the oil. Maybe it's the heat of the newer engines?

 

[RZucker]

HI All,

I think my helper is at the point of head removal BUT per some thoughts here it seems as though we should put the thermostat housing back on so we can pressurize the cooling system more easily (We can neck down a hose to allow a compressed air hose to pressurize the block).

I'm not sure if there is enough space to drop the oil pan without other work (raising the engine up) but we can try that...

Just curious but if we do drop the pan and pressurize the block, if we do not see any seepage from the liner seals I assume we should be OK at that point and simply proceed with removing the head gasket and making sure the head is OK ( I assume that is a machine shop only situation or can one determine if the head is OK or not by simply using a known straight edge and "seeing" if the underside of the head is flat ?).

In a worse case scenario ( if a leak / seepage is seen on a liner seal) how is a seal replaced? .... I assume the piston and con rod would have to be removed before the liner can be pulled out ? or can it be done without piston removal but I guess probably has to come out and so a ring compression tool can be used (how is the liner pulled out?...I assume tapping from the bottom with a brass punch and hammer ?....I guess they are in there tight ?).

Thanks

Andrew

Do not pull the head 'til you know where the leak is.

 

[DMiller]

Overheat does multiple damage in different locations all based on age of engine. Coolant not changed often or coolant filter/additives ignored and head gasket, or head penetration seal points corrode and weep, liner seals only get changed if liners are removed that means pistons out, not understanding how to set liner protrusion sets up repeat head gasket and potential piston/head damage. Not trying to be ignorant but this needs to go somewhere where the mechanic knows HOW to rebuild or diagnose and determine the problem.

 

[56wrench]

just another point to consider, IF the liner O-rings are found to be the cause, the older 466 engines were known to cavitate liners and you will need to get an inframe rebuild kit and do a full inframe rebuild otherwise you will be wasting your time. also, the lower and upper counterbores in the block should be checked for cavitation damage(lower) and depth and cracking(upper). the piston & liner assemblies MAY be able to be removed ( after the head is off) without separating them by jacking up from the bottom on the lower edge of the liner(without damaging it) if they're not in too tight. then, if everything else is good, the seals can be replaced and the assemblies loaded back in like a pre-assembled recon assembly. there are a lot of ifs-just my 2 cents worth. I may be kind of vague, but I type slow

 

[John C.]

There are no seals on the top part of the liner. The liners seals are at the bottom holding coolant from dropping into the crankcase. The lower bores of the engine block is where the seals bear against and it isn't uncommon on older high mileage or hour engines to have grooves in that area.

I am agreeing with DMiller in saying that you are venturing into something that needs some training or extensive experience in order to obtain the best return on your repair investment.

 

[Andyinchville]

HI All,

Thanks for the input thus far....

We got the head off and took it to a machine shop to check over ( to see if it was warped etc).

The head gasket was blown in a spot or two per my mechanic (I have not seen it personally yet).

The head checked out OK BUT the machinist mentioned that the underside of the head had some indication that the cylinder liner(s) may have moved a bit (I didn't know that was possible BUT the machine shop did say to make sure the liner protrusion was correct and made mention of shims etc ?).

How much protrusion is normal ?....where can I get info on rebuilding the engine (torque specs and pattern for the head etc)

Anyways, I have not picked the head back up yet but is it possible that the liner is NOT shimmed but rather eroded so it is less tall ?

Doing an entire inframe seems like a big job .... but I know if we have to do more probably best to do while the head is still off...

My mechanic said all the bolts were tight so he felt that liners should not be moving around ....

The oil pan is still off ....

Can liners and liner seals be replaced without changing everything (pistons / rings etc)...

Only reason I ask is because I am trying to get the engine back together with as little extra work / cost as possible (not made of $$ BUT I do realize best to do now things that NEED to be done while inside the engine).

Thanks in advance for any and all help

Andrew

 

[DMiller]

You could change liners and seals without doing a overhaul but "Why"? Either way the cylinder groups HAVE to come out, pistons and rods, sleeves and seal in that order. Rings are some of the least expensive parts here at this stage. Bearings will be apart and inspectable, basically you are overhauling to pull sleeves. As to a sleeve eroding and settling into the block, seriously doubtful, a halfass repair by a previous owner installing ONE cylinder group and poorly a definite could be.

 

[Andyinchville]

You could change liners and seals without doing a overhaul but "Why"? Either way the cylinder groups HAVE to come out, pistons and rods, sleeves and seal in that order. Rings are some of the least expensive parts here at this stage. Bearings will be apart and inspectable, basically you are overhauling to pull sleeves. As to a sleeve eroding and settling into the block, seriously doubtful, a halfass repair by a previous owner installing ONE cylinder group and poorly a definite could be.

HI,

New to the DT466 and engine rebuilding but so far in parts to do the head gasket I have about $625 in parts...

I have noticed that an inframe kit is about $1500 give or take depending on where you get one (where would you recommend?).

I am assuming the inframe kit includes everything to do the head as well (when I say head I had to get all the gaskets associated with the head removal (head gasket, valve cover gasket, exhaust manifold gasket etc) , 1 pushrod because the mechanic said 1 looked "bad" , new injector seals since the injectors had to come out for the head to be looked at and whatever else the mechanic said I needed to boot etc...in all about $625 in parts just to have the new stuff to put the head back on (QUESTION : Can I reuse the head bolts or would that have to be new ?....Head bolts are I think $26 each and 20 are needed or was it vise versa I can't recall but in either case a fair chunk of $$ just in head bolts if they need to be replaced)....

since the head has to come out on an in-frame could I return all the other parts and just get the in-frame kit which includes all the stuff I had to get separately for just the head work?

Are any special tools required to do all the liners and piston installs (I guess at least a piston ring compressor to get the pistons back into the cylinders?).

Thanks

 

[RZucker]

HI,

New to the DT466 and engine rebuilding but so far in parts to do the head gasket I have about $625 in parts...

I have noticed that an inframe kit is about $1500 give or take depending on where you get one (where would you recommend?).

I am assuming the inframe kit includes everything to do the head as well (when I say head I had to get all the gaskets associated with the head removal (head gasket, valve cover gasket, exhaust manifold gasket etc) , 1 pushrod because the mechanic said 1 looked "bad" , new injector seals since the injectors had to come out for the head to be looked at and whatever else the mechanic said I needed to boot etc...in all about $625 in parts just to have the new stuff to put the head back on (QUESTION : Can I reuse the head bolts or would that have to be new ?....Head bolts are I think $26 each and 20 are needed or was it vise versa I can't recall but in either case a fair chunk of $$ just in head bolts if they need to be replaced)....

since the head has to come out on an in-frame could I return all the other parts and just get the in-frame kit which includes all the stuff I had to get separately for just the head work?

Are any special tools required to do all the liners and piston installs (I guess at least a piston ring compressor to get the pistons back into the cylinders?).

Thanks

Ok... Stop and think this out. If your "mechanic" cant get the specs himself or know what tools are going to be needed, he's starting to sound like a disassembler. Not a good deal. Takes more than a wrench set to do an inframe. I have thousands in specialty tools for Cummins, Cat, and 2 stroke Detroits. Never touched a 466E except for changing a rear main seal... Another special tool. Made the customer buy that and take it home with him.

 

[funwithfuel]

It sounds like someone is in over their head. DT466 is gravy. Just another
I-6. 466E is a different animal that only shares a bottom end. Head, injectors, intake and exhaust are completely different as are front structure and gear train. Oil pump is gerotor style behind front damper. Add to that , high pressure oil pump. Bad things can happen. I think you'll need to find an experienced wrench who's been down this road before.
Good luck.

Oh BTW the factory service manual has all the specs. If you don't want to spring for one of those, look for Motor repair manuals at your local library.
And you're looking for "the works" kit available at your local Navistar dealer.

 

[RZucker]

Andy, we are not dogpiling on you, just trying to get it across that you need somebody with some experience to see what you have, that head gasket may have just rotted out and your liners are good to go the way they are. But you need somebody that knows to check them out.

 

[funwithfuel]

I read the post from RZucker. Reading that prompted me to reread my last post. Reading it to myself it didn't sound that way when I typed it out. I apologize if it sounded like l was coming down on you. you stated several times throughout your posts that cost is definitely a factor. I don't want to see you throw good money after bad. That is why I am encouraging you to to please seek out and experienced mechanic. Someone who is not quite sure what they are doing and learning on your dime can cost you a tremendous amount of money. you are not running an apprenticeship program it's not your job to teach your mechanic how to fix your engine.
Now on to the ugly meat-and-potatoes part of this. you already have the cylinder head removed you have the oil pan off you are wanting to remove cylinder liners in an effort to reseal. the problem comes in you're trying to reseal old parts that may not want to go back together and if you don't get them in exactly the right place where they originally were they won't like it we have all been down that road with unsuccessful results. we are just trying to steer you away from making the same mistakes that we have all learned from in the past. It works kit from International includes Pistons liners Rings rod and main bearings as well as the gaskets necessary to reassemble it is only an in-frame kit it is not a major overhaul kit so in saying that it does not include your oil pump or any of your front structure sealing rings.
The DT466 engine is a solid proven reliable Workhorse. it's only downside is that it is under-sized and designed specifically for a mid-range application such as a date time delivery vehicle. I believe if you look at your valve cover you will have a horsepower rating between 225 and 275 horsepower. the work that people ask these little engines to do usually falls on something with much higher torque and much more horsepower.. and there becomes the shorter life of the engine .
Good luck to you in whatever decision you decide to make

 

[funwithfuel]

And regarding your head bolts clean them all up with a wire wheel and solvent compare each bolt to one another if you have one that's exceptionally long pitch it . I exceptionally I mean 3 to 4 mm longer than the others. Look at the length of the shank carefully is there any heavy corrosion or pitting. If there is those need to go as well you can get by with only replacing what is necessary when it comes to the head bolts. They are torque to yield and as a result may be stretched or cracked. Close inspection is critical don't cut Corners in this area.