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1992 S60 Governor/Actuator

M1687

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The only other wiring on this machine that looks out of place is some wiring for what I believe is an add on choke.
You can see the relay mounted on the wall and some red wiring coiled up. This red coiled up wiring goes up to the add on choke.

Relay3.jpg
 

M1687

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I separated the two red wires for terminal 1 on the controller and tested for continuity.
The one red wire that is from the main harness has power with the key on. It also loses power when I hit the estop.

The other red wire that comes from the relay does not have any power to it at all when separated. I'm assuming they are energizing this relay with the other red wire?

Also, coming off this relay is a wire that goes to terminal 5 on the controller.
The green wire off this relay goes to the harness somewhere and the last wire off this relay goes to the block on the wall and is numbered either 42 or ? The number is on the actual wire.

Could the other wires coming off this relay be energizing the main harness red wire when they are not supposed to? Or in other words, the relay is bad?
 

willie59

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M1687, study your schematic. Second red wire comes from terminal 1 of Precision Governor controller and goes to terminal 30 of control relay #11, high engine relay. Brown wire connects to terminal 87 of CR1 and goes to terminal #5 of Prec Gov controller. This is what throttles engine up when working properly.

The problem were are having is it's extremely difficult to troulbleshoot electrical problems like this as we're not there, we don't know how everything is wired and if it's done proper by schematic. I've been busy with home projects lately and haven't followed this thread closely so it's likely I might suggest something that has already been said, but if it were me, I'd quit messing with the governor at the moment, disconnect power from term 1 of controller, and red wire connected to actuator, make sure the throttle is held back so it doesn't go full tilt, then I would make sure red/wht wire that powers everything is working correctly. Connect a test light to wire connection to anti diesel solenoid, start/run engine, depress E stop, and see if test light goes out at anti diesel solenoid and see if engine dies. Check this from both ground and platform controls. If this is working proper, then we can move on to governor.
 

VoodooMojo

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attached are a couple different ways to look at the circuit.
There was power on the fuel shut off valve you said in the other thread.
I think. I may be mistaken.

Be sure to follow out the wiring as in the diagrams below.
Verify the grounds are where they should be.

Willie has a valid point.
We can come back to the governor later if needed.
Let's set it at a mid rpm and work on the other issues.


precision governor relay.jpg
precision governor pictoral.jpg
 

willie59

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Thanks for correcting me voodo, 87A (NC) is proper connection of brown wire at CR11. ;)

BTW, nice illustrations you're making there. :cool:
 

VoodooMojo

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Thanks, it takes a bit of time sometimes.

especially these old relay-based machines.
Whenever someone asks me why everything has gone to microprocessors, I ask them to trace the circuit for the ignition / fuel circuit on these older units.
After about 30 minutes of confusion, it is understood.
Too bad microcontrollers are so much more expensive than relays
 

M1687

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When it comes to reading the wiring diagrams if a wire crosses over another does that mean that they are on the same circuit? Or does there have to be a darken circle indicating a connection? This has been my downfall of reading these diagrams.

In reference to the CR11 relay, I'm assuming the wire location placement on the terminals is critical? In other words, could a different type of relay have different wire placement on the terminals?

Also, just to make sure I need to verify which is terminal one and terminal two on the actuator? When looking at the face of the actuator, I've been putting the red wire on the right hand side. This was based off a picture of a similar machine I saw for sale via internet etc.

Would I be helping the situation if I sent off the controller to have it tested? I was told it would be about $35-40. Assuming there is nothing wrong with it.

I appreciate all your help you guys have been giving me so far.

I'll be working on this thing again in the morning.
 

willie59

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In reference to the CR11 relay, I'm assuming the wire location placement on the terminals is critical? In other words, could a different type of relay have different wire placement on the terminals?


Well M, since we're doing Genie schematics class, and Voodoo has been doing all the teaching, it's about time I made a contribution. :D

The first thing we need to understand is all schematics, unless otherwise stated, are drawn/shown in power off condition, nothing powered up or operated. That's where the term "normal" comes into play. For example, when you see a contact that's referred to as NC (normally closed), that means that in a no power state, machine not running, that contact connection is closed. Normal indicates machine at rest, not in use.

There are various type relays used on machines, the terminals have specific purposes depending on what type of relay it is. On your schematic, you'll see reference to several relays. PR, such as PR1, are power relays, typically solenoid type relays, larger terminals for power in/out, small terminals for wires that control the relay operation. CR, such as CR11, are control relays, typically Bosch cube type or Potter Brumfield clear "ice cube" relays.

Look at post #24 by Voodoo, that's a Bosch cube type relay at top of illustration. On those relays, terminals 85 and 86 are the terminals that operate the relay. Terminal 30 is the contact connection for relay contact. This contact will connect to terminal 87 or 87A depending on whether relay is powered up or not by coil inside. In normal state, no control power on 85/86, terminal 87A is NC with terminal 30, likewise, in normal state, terminal 87 is NO (normally open) with 30. When you power up the relay with 85 and 86, the coil switches the contact, now the relay is not in normal state, rather switched, and terminal 87 NO connects to 30, and terminal 87A NC breaks it's connection to terminal 30.

Look at the connections to Precision Governor on your schematic. You'll see a wire coming from terminal 1 of Prec Gov controller go to CR11 (control relay 11). That wire connects to terminal 30 of CR11 relay as diagram shows that connection is not the contact connect that breaks inside, the opposite connection does. Since the drawing notes the relay is CR11 NC, that means the other wire connects to 87A of the relay, the NC connection, and goes to terminal 5 of Prec Gov controller.



Genie CR11 illustration.gif


To view the coil that operates CR11, terminals 85 and 86, you have to go to next page of PDF diagram of your machine and find the coil there.
 
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willie59

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Here's one case on your schematic that cube relay coil is located nearby the contact connections, it's the CR5 relay that controls signal horn. Black wire comes from TB31 (Terminal/Base 31) from ground control box and goes to 85 of relay shown below on right, that's the relay coil as noted by Voodoo in legend at post #28. Wire coming from opposite side of coil, terminal 86, goes to ground. On the left side of pic is contact side of CR5 relay. Wire coming from top connects to terminal 30 of relay, the contact terminal. The opposite terminal, since it's show as an open circuit with the contact terminal means that connection is 87 of relay, the NO connection. That wire goes to signal horn. When you power up 85 and 86, it switches the relay, connect 30 with 87, and sends power to horn to sound horn.



Genie relay connections.gif
 

willie59

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Another feature of Genie schematics is wiring connections to terminal strips in control boxes. You'll see connections like TP1, which means a wire connected to terminal 1 of platform terminal strip, Terminal/Platform/1. Likewise, connections that start with TB, like TB31 mentioned in post above, are connections to lower (Base) control box, Terminal/Base/31.

This pic shows location of TB31 for service horn in lower control box.



Genie control box illustration.gif
 

willie59

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No problem M. Got a question, just ask, me or Voodoo should be able to help in some way. ;)
 

M1687

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I verified that the wiring on CR11 is correct.
The relay appears to have been replaced at one time because of the metal tab not there on the back for mounting purposes.
There's a few wire connections I want to redo. One of the them is the ground connections. The other is the wires for Terminal 85 on the CR11. Is this a fusible link of some sort?
See pic.
Relay1-A.JPG

So as of right now. The main red wire being fed to terminal one on the controller is functioning correctly (works on/off etc)
I don't have any power from the red wire off of CR11 to Terminal one either way (not sure if I'm supposed to or not?)

I'm going to redo the connections in the photo and pick up a new CR11 (I'm on the assumption that I'm getting the back feed via CR11 to terminal 1?) If this is not it, then I need to trace the main red wire and look for potential back feed sources.
I still need to verify which is terminal one and two on the actuator just to make sure I'm hooking the wires correctly etc. The more I think of it, it may not matter on the actuator?
s60-4.jpg
 

willie59

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The other is the wires for Terminal 85 on the CR11. Is this a fusible link of some sort?


It's a diode M, check page 132 of your PDF manual, it shows the coil of CR11 "high idle relay" in bottom left corner. The wire that connects to the diode goes to PR5 NO terminal, which is starter relay. What it does is kick the throttle to high rpm when cranking engine.




Genie S60 CR11.gif
 

VoodooMojo

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yes, and if the diode was omitted from the connection or shorted out, everytime the engine went to high idle, the starter would engage.
If the diode was open, the engine would try to start in the low idle position. Not easy to start that way, especially on propane
 
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willie59

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M, I (me and voodoo) need to clarify something as we're not there. You disconnected wire from terminal 1 of precision governor controller, disconnected red/wht wire from actuator, and things worked proper. Does that mean the anti-dieseling solenoid lost power when you depressed E stop, then engine stopped running?
 
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