1969 Case 580 CK 188 Power Shuttle diesel won't start

[Ken Miller]

This tractor would start easily with weak battery whether cold or hot after redoing the heads. While moving to re-attached backhoe front wheel lugs popped and wheel came off crashing to concrete. Motor kept running fine but after turning it off it would not restart after replacing front end/hubs - unless we used ether.


Thought something to do with fuel so rebuilt fuel pump - no change: had it rebuilt again professionally - no change; replaced fuel filters and ensured all fuel lines open - no change; Checked compression while trying to start: 260-275 all 4 cylinders vs supposed to be 400 when warm and running 200 RPMS so don't know if 260-275 is good or bad?


Started with ether - individually loosen all injector fuel lines and motor ran rough each time until tightened injector. Adjusted fuel pump timing for best running. Shut off and still won't restart when warm even with ether (or a propane blow torch), but will after cold with ether.


Impact of wheel coming off only change we know between easy start and now hard start. After starting problem appeared we did have generator rebuilt and got new regulator. We are stymied - don't know what else to check? Anyone know what the compression is supposed to be when cold cranking starter? Other suggestions? Have video of it running if that would help.

 

[Welder Dave]

I think if compression was that bad it wouldn't run at all. Engine at 200 RPM, is this cranking speed?

 

[Ken Miller]

We have no way to test compression when motor running. We got reading 260-275 with fuel disconnected and turning motor over with starter. Do you know what the compression should be when testing without running, just turning over with starter?

 

[Welder Dave]

Your post is kind of confusing. I'm wondering if the compression needs to be 400 PSI at 200 RPM cranking speed?

 

[Ken Miller]

We don’t have a way or the equipment to actually test the compression while the motor is running! We can test compression by pulling an injector, disconnecting the fuel lines and get a compression for each cylinder while turning motor over and reading the PSI for each cylinder without the motor starting - just compression generated by the starter turning the motor over.

 

[Welder Dave]

I think you're missing what I'm asking. Does the starter crank the engine at 200 RPM? I think a compression test is usually done with all injectors removed and each individual cylinder is tested 1 at a time. Having 3 injectors still in place is going to slow down the cranking speed. Having all the injectors removed will give the fastest cranking speed. Below is the confusing part. If the engine is only turning at say 100 RPM the compression readings could be lower than cranking at 200 RPM.

"Checked compression while trying to start: 260-275 all 4 cylinders vs supposed to be 400 when warm and running 200 RPMS so don't know if 260-275 is good or bad?"

 

[Delmer]

That's low compression, but they're close to each other, that's more important than the absolute pressure. You're doing the compression test right as far as I can see. How many compression cycles does it take to reach the 260PSI? Having all injectors out will help the number as Dave said.

This is a strange one, you didn't knock the rings into the oil pan by dropping one hub 8". Any chance the muffler collapsed inside? Does the exhaust blow any smoke when trying to start? any visible fuel/mist/fog? does it blow any dark smoke? does it sound smooth cranking? running smooth when it does start? have you checked the valve action? long shot, but it's easy to pull the valve cover off and check the tappet clearances. The video could help.

 

[Tinkerer]

 

[Ken Miller]

I think you're missing what I'm asking. Does the starter crank the engine at 200 RPM? I think a compression test is usually done with all injectors removed and each individual cylinder is tested 1 at a time. Having 3 injectors still in place is going to slow down the cranking speed. Having all the injectors removed will give the fastest cranking speed. Below is the confusing part. If the engine is only turning at say 100 RPM the compression readings could be lower than cranking at 200 RPM.

"Checked compression while trying to start: 260-275 all 4 cylinders vs supposed to be 400 when warm and running 200 RPMS so don't know if 260-275 is good or bad?"

Thanks for pushing back. My son did the testing and I was only partly correct and he had never done this before. The testing was done when motor was cold. he removed 3 injectors, left 4th in place and then tested the first 3 cylinders (so only 2 cylinders had open injector holes). He then removed last injector and repeated test, so on that one he had three open injector holes. No significant differences in all four readings. The battery is new and freshly charged. Ran starter 2-3 seconds like normal to start - turned over fast so maybe that was the 200rpm book talks about.

 

[Ken Miller]

That's low compression, but they're close to each other, that's more important than the absolute pressure. You're doing the compression test right as far as I can see. How many compression cycles does it take to reach the 260PSI? Having all injectors out will help the number as Dave said.

This is a strange one, you didn't knock the rings into the oil pan by dropping one hub 8". Any chance the muffler collapsed inside? Does the exhaust blow any smoke when trying to start? any visible fuel/mist/fog? does it blow any dark smoke? does it sound smooth cranking? running smooth when it does start? have you checked the valve action? long shot, but it's easy to pull the valve cover off and check the tappet clearances. The video could help.

New exhaust and it does blow some smoke when trying to start - no dark smoke - sounds smooth when cranking - seems to run good when do get started (improved when readjusted fuel pump timing). You might have something on valves according to my son who had the head rebuild and adjusted valves (and it started right up - before wheel crash) - but he's thinking maybe valves need to be readjusted although running time after new heads was less than 30 minutes total. Thanks so much for all these good questions/advice.

 

[Ken Miller]

New exhaust and it does blow some smoke when trying to start - no dark smoke - sounds smooth when cranking - seems to run good when do get started (improved when readjusted fuel pump timing). You might have something on valves according to my son who had the head rebuild and adjusted valves (and it started right up - before wheel crash) - but he's thinking maybe valves need to be readjusted although running time after new heads was less than 30 minutes total. Thanks so much for all these good questions/advice.

PS I'm old and new at this forum stuff - I couldn't find the video link your posted - can you just email it to me at kenbonniemiller@gmail.com or text to 360-999-8595, or teach this old dog how to find the link - thanks again

 

[Delmer]

You mentioned you have a video of it trying to start, that could help. I have no idea what could do this... completely shooting in the dark.

I don't think it's going to be compression, although a collapsed suction/ air intake hose if there is one, could cause low compression. Seems to be blowing some fuel out the exhaust, but I'd still look at the intake, exhaust, injection pump, and valve action cause it's easy.

Or post the video of it trying to start.

 

[Tinkerer]

Check the fuel shut off arm on the injection pump. The cable or arm on the pump may have been knocked goofy from the jolt when the machine dropped.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Good thinkin Tinkerer.!!!
Make sure the s/o lever goes from stop screw to stop screw.!!
Do u know how to do a WET compression test.??
Get a good dry reading.. NOW add some oil to the cyl. thru the inj hole. U need to add enough to cover the piston & flow around to the rings..
When I do it, I use a thumb operated oil can & put about 5 pumps in the cyl.
Then do the compression test again.. if it jumps real hi, u got ring problems.. which wouldn’t surprise me since u been bottle feeding it..

 

[thepumpguysc]

1 more thing, have u removed the return connector n tried to start it.?
TRY THAT.. remove ALL the fittings from the top cover of the inj pump.. fuel WILL come out so be prepared for that..
It’ll only take a few seconds for u to tell if it works or not..
I think that return line will flow fuel out of the tank so have someone hold their thumb over the end of it or get a cap.. good luck

 

[Ken Miller]

Check the fuel shut off arm on the injection pump. The cable or arm on the pump may have been knocked goofy from the jolt when the machine dropped.

That was our first suspicion that lead to complete rebuild of fuel pump - so that potential problem should be eliminated + plus it runs fine when get started.

 

[Ken Miller]

1 more thing, have u removed the return connector n tried to start it.?
TRY THAT.. remove ALL the fittings from the top cover of the inj pump.. fuel WILL come out so be prepared for that..
It’ll only take a few seconds for u to tell if it works or not..
I think that return line will flow fuel out of the tank so have someone hold their thumb over the end of it or get a cap.. good luck

We have checked the fuel return line all the way to the tank so know that is not plugged. will share above with son in case he hasn't already tried this.

 

[Ken Miller]

1 more thing, have u removed the return connector n tried to start it.?
TRY THAT.. remove ALL the fittings from the top cover of the inj pump.. fuel WILL come out so be prepared for that..
It’ll only take a few seconds for u to tell if it works or not..
I think that return line will flow fuel out of the tank so have someone hold their thumb over the end of it or get a cap.. good luck

This tractor would start easily with weak battery whether cold or hot after redoing the heads. While moving to re-attached backhoe front wheel lugs popped and wheel came off crashing to concrete. Motor kept running fine but after turning it off it would not restart after replacing front end/hubs - unless we used ether.


Thought something to do with fuel so rebuilt fuel pump - no change: had it rebuilt again professionally - no change; replaced fuel filters and ensured all fuel lines open - no change; Checked compression while trying to start: 260-275 all 4 cylinders vs supposed to be 400 when warm and running 200 RPMS so don't know if 260-275 is good or bad?


Started with ether - individually loosen all injector fuel lines and motor ran rough each time until tightened injector. Adjusted fuel pump timing for best running. Shut off and still won't restart when warm even with ether (or a propane blow torch), but will after cold with ether.


Impact of wheel coming off only change we know between easy start and now hard start. After starting problem appeared we did have generator rebuilt and got new regulator. We are stymied - don't know what else to check? Anyone know what the compression is supposed to be when cold cranking starter? Other suggestions? Have video of it running if that would help.

trying to upload video of it running - new technology for me

We have checked the fuel return line all the way to the tank so know that is not plugged. will share above with son in case he hasn't already tried this.

This tractor would start easily with weak battery whether cold or hot after redoing the heads. While moving to re-attached backhoe front wheel lugs popped and wheel came off crashing to concrete. Motor kept running fine but after turning it off it would not restart after replacing front end/hubs - unless we used ether.


Thought something to do with fuel so rebuilt fuel pump - no change: had it rebuilt again professionally - no change; replaced fuel filters and ensured all fuel lines open - no change; Checked compression while trying to start: 260-275 all 4 cylinders vs supposed to be 400 when warm and running 200 RPMS so don't know if 260-275 is good or bad?


Started with ether - individually loosen all injector fuel lines and motor ran rough each time until tightened injector. Adjusted fuel pump timing for best running. Shut off and still won't restart when warm even with ether (or a propane blow torch), but will after cold with ether.


Impact of wheel coming off only change we know between easy start and now hard start. After starting problem appeared we did have generator rebuilt and got new regulator. We are stymied - don't know what else to check? Anyone know what the compression is supposed to be when cold cranking starter? Other suggestions? Have video of it running if that would help.[/IMG_2292.MOV. Let me know if this video came through.

 

[Tinkerer]

Ken;
You cannot load a video directly onto this site. It has to be put on a site like YouTube, then you would copy and paste the url of it here.

 

[Tinkerer]

If you are near Olympia, Washington you are about 100 feet above sea level.
According to the the service manual image I posted, you are about 200 psi lacking in compression.
Its gonna need ether to start. IMHO.