1845c Cold start question

[phil314]

My 1845c is almost always parked in my heated garage where it starts just fine.
However, on the few occasions when I've left it outside, it gets difficult to start if the temp is below 30F.
Replacing the battery didn't change anything. It cranks just fine, but doesn't want to fire.

It's always been this way as long as I've had it. Not getting better or worse over the years. If I plug in the block heater, it starts just fine. I've also got ether start, but it doesn't work. Probably should fix it.

So this is more of a question, not really a problem. Is this normal for these machines to be difficult to start below 30 without block heater/ether?

 

[Delmer]

It should start OK down a little colder than 30. If it hasn't changed though, probably not much that can be done about it easily. It is normal to be difficult to start, especially if by "difficult" you mean it cranks ten seconds and sputters for another five.

No experience with an 1845C, just guessing based off other similar vintage diesels. A dodge cummins has an intake heater for cold starts, but even without one, it should start fine down to 10 or 20, just run rougher for a bit.

Plugging it in is better for it than ether starts, an ether start kit is way better than a can though.

 

[Shimmy1]

Lift pump is getting weak could be a logical conclusion. They are only about $40, if it doesn't make it start better you're not out much. BTW, how long do you have to crank before it starts, and does it smoke a lot for a bit, or do you just get some puffs and a bigger one when it finally lights?

 

[thepumpguysc]

Those lift pumps go out at a blink of an eye or if you look at them wrong.. Definatly change it.
It should start up in snow & ice.. that pump & engine combo is a beast.
Does yours have the cold start solenoid on the side of it?? electrical connector on the solenoid and a pipe running towards the front..
Make sure you have 12 volts while running.
Also check the fuel lines for banjo bolt connectors,, say where it connects to the filter head.. some have screens in them that get clogged w/ gunk..
The real nice thing about that combo is, the same components can produce MANY different HP's with just a turn of a screw..
Are you pulling the throttle WIDE OPEN when trying to start it?? that makes a HUGE difference..

 

[mountainlake]

Plus on holding the throttle wide open, my 75xt starts good down to 20 f, then needs glow plugs or what ever heater system it has. I'd get the either assist fixed on yours. Steve

 

[phil314]

It should start OK down a little colder than 30. If it hasn't changed though, probably not much that can be done about it easily. It is normal to be difficult to start, especially if by "difficult" you mean it cranks ten seconds and sputters for another five.

No experience with an 1845C, just guessing based off other similar vintage diesels. A dodge cummins has an intake heater for cold starts, but even without one, it should start fine down to 10 or 20, just run rougher for a bit.

Plugging it in is better for it than ether starts, an ether start kit is way better than a can though.

Yes, that exactly what I mean by difficult. I was "told' these machines were not the best for cold starting. Just trying to confirm.
I've also got an 03 dodge ram cummins, but that's a very different fuel system, it just pops off regardless.

 

[phil314]

Lift pump is getting weak could be a logical conclusion. They are only about $40, if it doesn't make it start better you're not out much. BTW, how long do you have to crank before it starts, and does it smoke a lot for a bit, or do you just get some puffs and a bigger one when it finally lights?

Maybe cranks for 10-15 seconds, then sputters for a big if it actually starts. Not much smoke while cranking, then a big puff when it starts. But it's hard to tell cause it puff once at startup most of the time anyway.

I just replaced the lift pump about a month ago because it completely died. I suspect that it has been weak for a while. I haven't done a "cold" start test since then.
I really didn't occur to me to try one, since the machine has always acted this way. Just kind of came to believe that it was the nature of this beast.

 

[phil314]

Those lift pumps go out at a blink of an eye or if you look at them wrong.. Definatly change it.
It should start up in snow & ice.. that pump & engine combo is a beast.
Does yours have the cold start solenoid on the side of it?? electrical connector on the solenoid and a pipe running towards the front..
Make sure you have 12 volts while running.
Also check the fuel lines for banjo bolt connectors,, say where it connects to the filter head.. some have screens in them that get clogged w/ gunk..
The real nice thing about that combo is, the same components can produce MANY different HP's with just a turn of a screw..
Are you pulling the throttle WIDE OPEN when trying to start it?? that makes a HUGE difference..

Yeah, the lift pump died about a month ago. I replaced the line from the tank, the lift pump, both fuel filters. No screen in the fuel line with the banjo bolts. The system primed very quickly with the new lift pump.

Don't believe I've got a cold start solenoid, it's an 89 1845c. Voltage is correct on everything I've checked. Like I said, it's been this way for a very long time and no tinkering to date has changed it.

When it's warm, I'll bump it just off idle to start. When it's "cold", I'll push it to about 1/2 throttle to start. So what is the correct way to "cold" start this machine? Full throttle?

 

[phil314]

Plus on holding the throttle wide open, my 75xt starts good down to 20 f, then needs glow plugs or what ever heater system it has. I'd get the either assist fixed on yours. Steve

75xt has a turbo right? I've 'heard' that helps starting a bit and that non-turbo are more finicky. I've been meaning to get the ether start fix, but it's just never been a priority, since my machine is always parked in a heated shop.

 

[mountainlake]

No turbo on the 75xt, I'm not sure what type starts the best as turbo engines run around 16 to 1 compression and non turbo run about 22 to 1. The best starting engine I've had was a DT466 turbo in a International truck, forgot to plug it in one night and it started with just a jump at -25 f, no either , no glow plugs or any kind of heater. That engine has something built in to the pump that gave it way more fuel for starting which kicked out soon as it got oil pressure. If it died after running just a little I had to let the oil pressure drop back to 0 before it would start again. They should use that system in all diesels, sure would save a lot of trouble. Steve

 

[check]

Generally speaking, non turbo diesels start easier, but there are other factors to consider like cranking speed. "Strokers", engines with a stroke that significantly exceeds bore also tend to start easier. Other engines may have a very high cranking speed and start easily no matter all the other variables, even when worn out and low compression.

 

[Birken Vogt]

The best starting engine I've had was a DT466 turbo in a International truck, forgot to plug it in one night and it started with just a jump at -25 f, no either , no glow plugs or any kind of heater. That engine has something built in to the pump that gave it way more fuel for starting which kicked out soon as it got oil pressure. If it died after running just a little I had to let the oil pressure drop back to 0 before it would start again

I always wondered why o d466s would do that start-die-start-die thing, now I have some kind of explanation. When they started quick like that you always thought they were going to take off and run but then they would just immediately die. It was pretty strange.

 

[mountainlake]

As with the skid loaders you need to hold the throttle wide open when it cold out. Steve

 

[thepumpguysc]

The DT has an oil operated cold start system on the in-line inj. pumps.
It was engaged w/ 0 oil pressure and kicked out when pressure got to 25 psi.. and dumped a bucket of fuel in the cylinders at cranking.
Some JD & Cummins have them too..
Some VE rotary pumps like yours, have an electric solenoid on the advance system that advances the timing at starting.
Can you post a pic of the pump?

 

[Shimmy1]

How many hours on it? We had a backhoe once with a 5.9. That thing would light up like summertime down to 0°F, and would start reasonably well down to -15°. But, after we had to replace the engine, and move the fuel pump over, that thing started like crap below 25°F. I believe that the timing means everything on these engines, and possibly a few degrees can make a huge difference. Our 780C did not have the cold start solenoid on the pump.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Your correct, timing IS A HUGE ISSUE.. they put a pin for the engine timing BUT you have to have a dial indicator to do the pump..
Once the lift is set on the pump, you lock it w/ the drive shaft locking bolt..
To check it, you put a special tool that holds a dial indicator in the back of the pump and rotate the engine until the pin locks in and read the dial indicator lift.
IF its off or wrong, you twist the pump

 

[Parts]

Does your C use the 4bt cummins? If so you could start with a basic valve adjustment. This makes a world of difference on cold starts. Remeber that the gap being off changed timing immensely. Of course a good lift pump and fresh oil so you get a good cylinder seal is important as well.