• Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!

Emmisions ethics and the law

M

Midnightmoon

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Messages
445
Location
Ny
Recently got a machine into my bay that a customer bought a an auction. Customer wants to put it back to the way it was. Hook up disconnected hoses make it run better. Well the complete def system was removed. Tank, controller wiring everything. What's odd is it doesnt throw any codes for these things being disconnected. Apears to have a non oem dataset in the ecu or maybe from another country of origan. Machine had a fire melted alot of the plastic engine parts on top which were replaced before it went to the aucrion. Customer saw price and now is back peddling and wants it to just make it run better what can you do. What's the legal take on doing anything to this machine other then fixing it 100%? Should I touch anything even non emmisions related? Now that I know its emmisions have most likely been tuned out by a reflash what would you do? Looks like we will end up refusing to work on any system unless the emissions are fixed. I know I can legally be held personally responsible by the epa if I modify bypass ect any emmisions but whats my responsibility when that machine roles into the shop?
 
Last edited:
Tones

Tones

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2009
Messages
3,078
Location
Ubique
Occupation
Ex land clearing contractor, part-time retired
Watching this with interest. What machine is it?
 
Truck Shop

Truck Shop

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
16,923
Location
WWW.
Dealer/OEM shops around here will not can not allow any piece of equipment/vehicle in there shop that has any deleted emissions.
At one dealer it is posted at the service desk {If any truck/vehicle is found to have emissions deleted said vehicle will be towed from
their shop at owners expense}.
A Kenworth dealer near by has a truck in their yard with a X15 that was tampered with for two plus months now-I think the
authorities are involved too,
 
B

Birken Vogt

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,320
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
I can't speak to the legal issues, but you will probably lose your shirt over the technical issues.

The software to operate with deleted emissions was probably written by a kid in his mom's basement. The only way the people who wrote it can stay out of jail is to fade away quickly before the EPA discovers them. So they are never going to be any help.

Warren "Western Truck and Tractor Repair" on Youtube did a series on a truck with stealthy deleted emissions a customer of his bought unsuspecting. It looked like it was about to turn into a lawsuit last I saw. And he has technical capabilities and laptop software way more than most of us could even hope for.

My position would be, I have plenty of less complicated work to spend time on.
 
J

Jonas302

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
1,198
Location
mn
I will have to search for that EPA article that explained it what I remember is if you work on emissions system that is modified you could be in a world of hurt unless your putting it all back to factory

That may not stop you from changing a tire but most informed shops are not going to perform any under hood service
Both the shop and the technician can be held responsible.
 
funwithfuel

funwithfuel

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2017
Messages
5,589
Location
Will county Illinois
Occupation
Mechanic
big ben

big ben

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2010
Messages
352
Location
Vancouver Island
My experience is off-road if that makes a difference but the dealer here can work on any deleted machine no prob if they so choose. No rules against working on any part of the machine just because the engine has been tampered with. But they will not obviously work on anything related to the delete but yes they can do
other work on the engine. And it must be documented in the service report.

No warranty if the delete can be tied to the failure.

But things like injectors can be changed no prob and new trim file put in, in most cases. The software is non-OEM but most all other tests and functions work the same. If done professionally most times the average person would not know the difference other than no DEF is needed and the soot load never builds…..

The OPs example of everything removed is a bit extreme with who did that delete.
 
Tones

Tones

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2009
Messages
3,078
Location
Ubique
Occupation
Ex land clearing contractor, part-time retired
I have know of complete deletes including DPF removal, engine retuned. The engines ran away cooler and used a lot less fuel and became reliable. Everything thing was purchased as a kit so I suppose before selling the can reinstate back to original.
 
big ben

big ben

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2010
Messages
352
Location
Vancouver Island
Truck Shop said:
That's Canada-different set if rules.
Click to expand...
Seem like the rules on paper on similar. Don’t support, repair or anything related to the delete but if any other systems need work why not ? Diff repair, trans, etc ? Just don’t touch the exhaust.

Again from professional to back yard hack deletes range in what is involved and has been tampered with.

But yes, to walk away is best if in question. No one needs that hassle
 
B

Birken Vogt

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,320
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
John C. said:
I'm an old person so I confine my work on old stuff. I leave the newer engine stuff to the kids with the computers.
Click to expand...

I have found that old people who kept up with the times and learned how to work on current stuff with computers and laptops are by far the very best because they understand mechanical, electrical, and electronic in the whole package.

The trouble is there are only about 3 of them in existence. Maybe more, probably most of them post on here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top