Moving water

aighead · Mar 20, 2021

Hey gang, my 82 year old neighbor, we'll call him N, is asking for help again, and with that is me also asking for help or advice.

N has a neighbor who has a small pond that drains off into N's yard, across his driveway, making a giant puddle, to the point where N can't mow or run around on his tractor or anything. N has already tried talking to his neighbor about moving the drain but there has been some drama around that and it ain't happening. Enter me, withy backhoe.

We initially talked about digging a trench the 650+ feet from the source to the creek, seen at the end of the yellow line in the picture below. Then as I was thinking about how much work that'd be for me, and how expensive for N to pay me, I thought of a well of sorts with a pump and a hose or some conduit to push the water that 650 feet to the creek. That sounded like a much less expensive and time consuming alternative, but I don't know anything about pumping water. From the well I'm thinking of digging to the creek has a gradual probably 10 foot rise before it starts dropping toward the creek. That rise is over the course of a few hundred feet, the top of the rise is about midpoint of the yellow line. Also, not the yellow line that's the street, the line just below midway down the screen.

Is this possible? Any better suggestions?

cuttin edge · Mar 20, 2021

Is N the top of the picture of the bottom? Digging a drain, helps the neighbor, by getting rid of his water as well I would berm it up to keep the water on his property. If you could move material from the natural high point to where the water enters his property. Hard to tell without ground level pictures.

Tinkerer · Mar 20, 2021

Depending on local laws he may not be able to build a berm and block the flow.
What is the sub-soil like ? Is a french drain feasible ?
A force line from a pump will require the discharge to be below the maximum depth of frost in your area.
How deep do you have to go to install a gravity drain in a 6" plastic pipe ?

skyking1 · Mar 20, 2021

for gravity to do the job, you are guessing you need a 10' cut. That is a ton of work for any smaller machine, let alone a backhoe. Take your time assessing this project.
Just daylighting it through, you need a minimum of 1.5 to 1 slopes off the bottom of the cut. Say you cut a 2' ditch ( which is really small and hard to keep open through a cut ), you have 1.5 x 2, 30' wide, +2 for the bottom. 32' cut and what will you do with the dirt?
at 1.5 to 1 those are not mowable slopes. They are barely walkable for a healthy fellow. All considerations. If I had some pipe that is where I would go. nice swale with gentle slopes till that is no longer practical, then into a pipe for the deep cut.
I would not plan on pumping ever. It requires too much commitment and maintenance. put in a deep catch in front of the pipe and a screen to keep the tumbleweeds out.

Raildudes dad · Mar 20, 2021

How about directional drilling a 6 or 8 inch PVC line? I had a long low area on a road project. No outlet. Evaporation was the only way for the water to go down. The road had been a mud hole for years Just raising the road with native material had been tried but would get saturated and fail. The detour was significant and the county wanted a solution so they could improve and pave the road.
The river was quite a ways away, I want to say 2000 feet. Probably a 15-20 foot "hill" in the way. There were a couple low spots on the way to the river so I had it set up to directional drill 10 inch PVC with a couple manholes in the low spots for clean-outs. Don't remember the cost anymore but it was a lot cheaper than installing a conventional open cut storm sewer.

aighead · Mar 20, 2021

N is the house on the bottom, the neighbors pond is almost exactly straight north of his house, and dumps into his yard where the yellow line starts. Then the grassy area to the right of his house and his garden are what get flooded.

The ground goes pretty well from top of the picture being the highest spot to the bottom of the picture, so I don't think attempting to keep the water in the neighbors yard is an option. Unfortunately, it would be nice if the neighbor controlled his own spillway but again that seems unlikely.

Tinkerer- I don't think there any laws to really worry about in our township. Sub-soil is likely a pretty decent clay mixture which doesn't help much. Gravity drain would work but that's gonna be hours and hours and hours of my time on the hoe and grading it downhill, which I'm only marginally competant with. I think frost isn't really much of an issue either, as the pond dries out in the summer and I think if it were wet it'd pump, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

Skyking1 - I'm not sure what you mean by 1.5 to 1 slopes off the bottom. Swale, I think, would be easiest if the pump isn't practical. It's also not an area they'll worry about mowing it's basically right along the edge of the property line. My thought would be to leave the removed dirt on the south side of the ditch so if the ditch overflowed it would still hold some more without bleeding too badly into his yard.

aighead · Mar 20, 2021

Rail dudes-I can't imagine he'd want to get that deep into it. This is definitely a make something work kind of fella and he's not real concerned with how it looks. It's an area that will eventually grow over with honeysuckle.

mks · Mar 20, 2021

Does the road to the left have suitable drainage to direct too?

skyking1 · Mar 21, 2021

aighead said:
N is the house on the bottom, the neighbors pond is almost exactly straight north of his house, and dumps into his yard where the yellow line starts. Then the grassy area to the right of his house and his garden are what get flooded.

The ground goes pretty well from top of the picture being the highest spot to the bottom of the picture, so I don't think attempting to keep the water in the neighbors yard is an option. Unfortunately, it would be nice if the neighbor controlled his own spillway but again that seems unlikely.

Tinkerer- I don't think there any laws to really worry about in our township. Sub-soil is likely a pretty decent clay mixture which doesn't help much. Gravity drain would work but that's gonna be hours and hours and hours of my time on the hoe and grading it downhill, which I'm only marginally competant with. I think frost isn't really much of an issue either, as the pond dries out in the summer and I think if it were wet it'd pump, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

Skyking1 - I'm not sure what you mean by 1.5 to 1 slopes off the bottom. Swale, I think, would be easiest if the pump isn't practical. It's also not an area they'll worry about mowing it's basically right along the edge of the property line. My thought would be to leave the removed dirt on the south side of the ditch so if the ditch overflowed it would still hold some more without bleeding too badly into his yard.

you mentioned it would take a 10' cut to daylight the water to the other end of the property.

suladas · Mar 21, 2021

Well if it was my property, I would be telling the neighbor to keep their water on their own property, failing that I would be building a berm so they end up flooding themselves.

Is there a ditch at the front road to drain into? That's a lot closer. If the area naturally all drains to the south, what about some kind of catch basin where it enters the property, trench a pipe a few feet down and go to the south property line? Wouldn't need to be deep if the land already slopes that way.

Tarhe Driver · Mar 21, 2021

I sure ain't a lawyer, but in many places where drainage has been diverted to flow onto the property of another where it had not previously flowed, the impacted owner can legally demand that the owner of the higher elevation property redirect the flow of the water elsewhere, so as not to roll water onto the lower property.

Delmer · Mar 21, 2021

what Tarhe said, if this water is not the natural flow, then he can sue to have it fixed, or block it at the property line and let the neighbor drama all he wants. Typically you won't have puddles naturally, but it looks like there was plenty of dirtmoving on both properties so it's real hard for me to see what was moved, and what was natural flow. A better layout of the creek, the pond, where the pond is sourced and drained, and where the water goes would get you a lot of armchair lawyers opinions.

If the only option to remove the water is to go over the ten foot rise, then you could set up a siphon easily enough. It would be a little bit of a pain to re establish the siphon occasionally, but less trouble than a pumped system, the pipe would be the same and most of the cost besides the excavation.

Tones · Mar 22, 2021

Combining a pump with a syphon is the go I reckon. Once the syphon is working turn the pump off and the water will flow through the pump. A 4" pump can shift alot of water and are not that expensive

aighead · Mar 22, 2021

@mks I didn't think about going towards the street... That's uphill, but I'll have to take a closer look.

Most of the water, in the neighborhood seems to come from the top left of the picture (northwest), and works it's way down to the right. In this instance the major problems are coming from the neighbors man-made pond and aren't an issue year round, but in the spring it gets real soggy. N's neighbor, on the other side (bottom of the picture) has dammed up his property line, so that N's garden also gets flooded.

I think I'd be in agreement that maybe he should talk to the law, but I don't know if he's inclined to do so.

Thanks, everyone, for their suggestions. I'll try to get a couple ground level pictures. It's a shame because the little pond is nice, and it's on a nice property, but shouldn't be spilling into N's yard, that's a jerk move. I will say that N is a junk collector though, so it may be an intentional move, by the neighbor, because N's yard is a mess... I don't know that to be true, but I do know how neighbors get sometimes.

@Tonnes I thought that too, but it doesn't seem to be the consensus... I've never run a pump much though. I understand there are ways that it may clog up but aren't there also ways to mitigate that? Screens, filters, etc?

Tones · Mar 22, 2021

@ aighead, an empty oil pale can be recycled into a strainer with the aid of a pick.

Delmer · Mar 22, 2021

that makes more sense, so the upstream neighbor may be intentionally being a jerk and diverting water. And the downstream neighbor dammed up that water also to keep it off his property, which is only satisfying in the short term because he's still getting the water, just as ground water not surface water. And that's the only reason not to dam up the upstream side, he'll still have wet ground from the underground water, unless you can continue that dam all the way to the stream.

Tones idea about using the pump to prime the siphon makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't think you'd need even a 2" pipe if you have any fall at all after the siphon, but you can judge the quantity better than us. I'd probably use either 1" black plastic, or if you go PVC, might as well to to 2", but 1 1/2" PVC will move a lot of water too. A plastic barrel sunk into the ground with thousands of small holes drilled in it will be a good strainer, soround it with rock or gravel. The lower end of your siphon you want a trap to keep from losing the siphon, so a bucket or smaller barrel sunk as low as you can get, with the end of your pipe submerged in water 6-12".

terex herder · Mar 22, 2021

Some water movement is state law, most is federal law. Generally, you can't change water flow. I'm guessing the pond just slows down the natural water flow but didn't change it. The guy on the bottom end that put up a dam sounds like the one who changed the water flow. As for a road bore to move the water, that sounds like a high dollar solution. I'd guess over $12/foot, maybe double that or more, depending on local rates and soils. Its a big boy machine that can run 600' in one go.

Tugger2 · Mar 22, 2021

A siphon works pretty good. But put lots of care into your pipe fitting . A vaccum seal can be challenging to retain. Id use shedule 80 pipe , continuous plastic would reduce chances of fitting leakage.
I built a 20" dia siphon to drain a lake on a dam project . It worked great ,except the blasters on the job could leave it alone with flyrock . A pinhole would shut it down so we did a lot of patching.

old-iron-habit · Mar 22, 2021

terex herder said:
Some water movement is state law, most is federal law. Generally, you can't change water flow. I'm guessing the pond just slows down the natural water flow but didn't change it. The guy on the bottom end that put up a dam sounds like the one who changed the water flow. As for a road bore to move the water, that sounds like a high dollar solution. I'd guess over $12/foot, maybe double that or more, depending on local rates and soils. Its a big boy machine that can run 600' in one go.

$600 ft at $12 a foot sounds pretty reasonable to me. The original plan to trench a gravity drain could not be touched for that money. Put it in a strainer barrel and for the most part forget it.

aighead · Mar 23, 2021

Thanks Gang, it sounds like the plan will likely be dig a hole, stick in a pump with filter of some sort, attach a line that will hold a siphon.

Are there pass through pumps? Meaning can water siphon through the pump or does there need to be a "T" with one end connected to the pump, a 2nd end loose in the hole, and 3rd end is the outlet?

Moving water

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