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Readying for the KW

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
Prius and Leaf cars, any of the battery power cars require TONS more energy than solar will provide, not gonna get it off the grid without being Drilled for Fuel Produced or Fossil. The batteries use Lithium and require Severe mining with MILLIONS of tons of waste and waste water, about as dirty as it gets.

It's all about the perception of being green. New community here all homes are "net zero", many won't even have natural gas in them, even though that's how 99.99% of homes are heated because it gets to -40 and electric won't cut it. But the subdivision has a 8" high pressure gas line to heat the water to send to the homes to help heat them, other then that just electric heat. But since the gas isn't used by the homes, it doesn't count towards their emissions. So stupid, and most likely going to cost homeowners a fortune trying to keep warm with electric.
 

Pixie

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Messages
373
Location
NH
Occupation
remodeling
We have a "delivery charge" for electricity. The juice may be 7 something cents/KWH but the delivery charge brings it up to 28 cents/KWH. We also don't have natural gas. Propane is $4.10/gallon if you are buying less than 300 gallons at a time. Lots of people including me have oil burning heat.

When the billion people in China "go green", I'll think about it.
 

Willie B

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
4,039
Location
Mount Tabor VT
Occupation
Electrician
We have a "delivery charge" for electricity. The juice may be 7 something cents/KWH but the delivery charge brings it up to 28 cents/KWH. We also don't have natural gas. Propane is $4.10/gallon if you are buying less than 300 gallons at a time. Lots of people including me have oil burning heat.

When the billion people in China "go green", I'll think about it.
Heat pumps are very efficient, trouble is, others in this country pay less than half as much for electricity. Still, a heat pump buys more BTUs for your dollar. Now, when it gets very cold outside the heat pump loses efficiency, produces less heat when we need more. You'll still need other heat source.
I was amazed, a group of geniuses built a facility 18,500 square feet of 12' tall ceiling. 3 garage doors, 6 walk doors, not a lot of windows. It is well insulated, double studded 14" thick walls, 40" of cellulose in the attic. They have 8 12000 BTU heat pumps + a 24000 for the office area. There is also a wood stove. They maintain 60D F. in VT, sometimes -20F
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,428
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Heat pump had enough last night, finally worked long enough hard enough it cooled down the transfer field area where would not give up any further heat, called for Backup Emergency heat(Electric) which has been shut off except for when the coil leaked, turned it on last night to keep house warm 7kw resistance heater, borderline not enough. After a few hours HP ran again where could exchange more heat and ran until just at hour ago, ground source coolant reached min temp again and went back to resistance heat.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,428
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Spoke to HVAC Contractor, system not designed to handle the extreme temps are seeing for extended period. Suggested Supplemental heat source(Wood Stove) and will work up a bid to add a loop in a different region of yard , currently 3 loops that run in a 555G bucket width trench 5-6' deep, extra loop may have to be well away from those for efficacy where will add several gallons exchange fluid to the ground source where may be able to heat recover longer regardless.

Working options costs up.
 

Old Doug

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
4,484
Location
Mo
When i was framing houses i over heard the hvac guys say ground source and started laughing. I ask what was so funny they said it would be wornout before it saved any money. That seems true.
 

Willie B

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
4,039
Location
Mount Tabor VT
Occupation
Electrician
Here, where we see extended periods of 0 Degree weather few systems use ground heat. We went from 1990 physics when we simply did not have enough air heat to make heat pumps function justifiably. Then, very determined people added resistance heaters in the outdoor air to move the air a few degrees to where a heat pump would function.

Changes in scroll compressors, inverter power sources feeding DC motors, heat pumps have become energy savers. Ground source heat pumps are limited to "out of state millionaires, building here."


Still, very few homes lock in to the heat pump only strategy. 99% have a less efficient heating system that rests when moderate temperatures make a heat pump function better.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,428
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Our ground source is field type, three 160' long yard loops set at 5' depth. Normal year t-stats(4 zones) set on 70 and all is well, this Vortex event sent us into minus temps with no snow on the ground and steady wind, earth heat dissipates fast. Last night thru this morning had t-stats sitting on 65(Spare room) and 67 rest of upstairs, 8" snow blanket yesterday and heat pump not had to switch off to emergency coil. Wish could have gotten loops deeper but hit the top of the hill solid rock at 4' and had to bring fill up from excavation at highway easement to add 10-20" atop that.
Neighbor has Well system with four 400' wells with pipe grouted into holes, cannot match our utility cost. Shop and house combined(Single Meter) generally run $245 to 315/mo, month on 7kw coil last winter the expense was close to $500 with t-stats set at 65 so am seeing a noted level of savings. Even if only $200/mo figured after rebate and Fed Tax abatement from first install we will turn break even at 7 years(2 more). Loops still in ground replace main unit at $7500- 8500 and back in business at roughly twelve-15 years expected lifespan.

Our Emergency circuit usually sits down powered breaker OFF, as temps come back up will return there. Have no AC Condenser outside, HP does both on ground loops, cooling never been a issue.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,428
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Most likely going to have to supplement to keep the system from coil loading, can justify that. HP pull heat from ground source coolant, pushes cold side back into that coolant out to field. if cannot cycle off for short periods then the loops load cold and cannot recover ground heat where if can extend time Off ground source heat can recover. Have plenty of wood in logged tree tops, looking at five year intervals of Walnut Logging and have plenty of dead or dying trees can drop for use. Oak Black Locust fence row Walnut(wire inside) and Hickory. Some hackberry, some other hardwood varieties even some elm if need to use.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,428
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
This morning HP finally full failed. Did not drop below 28 last night but system went back into overload and dropped compressor, will not recycle to restart So just shut it down until Tech gets here.

Yesterday piddled in shop as floor still like laying on a iceberg, reassembled right door to where need manual lock rod to complete(Maybe in today's orders), got seat belt tethers replaced, set the door restraint cushions and shifter boots/replacement shift knob assembly then just looked it over as to next operations. Need door finish assembled, clean off cab floor, measure and set shifter hole/seats bolting holes in floor mat then set mat. After that in place replace Sleeper boot perhaps install both seats and then return to engine work.
 

Truck Shop

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
16,542
Location
WWW.
Blower motor took a dump in the waste oil furnace in the company shop a week ago, two weeks to get a new one. But the shop doesn't have heated floors anyway so it's always cold working
off a creeper, now it's even colder.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,428
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Tech just left, asked why the Hi Pres cutout alarm of another tech, reached in to see if has a reset but when reached in wire fell away from wire terminal. Just a broken connection.

Did get my external building plug in setup installed. Have forever ran a extension cord out under door, decided time for a change up. As set up junction box inside can expand off of that.

IMG_9039.JPG IMG_9040.JPG IMG_9041.JPG
 
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Willie B

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
4,039
Location
Mount Tabor VT
Occupation
Electrician
Needs an in use raintight cover & GFCI protection.....Don't see any supports on the EMT either. Lets get this right.
Support within 3' of each end & not more than 10' apart.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,428
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Used 2-1/2” emt clips screwed to wall metal on each horizontal run all good there. The down runner is going to get standoffs.
Staying with as is box cover and outlet until someone here barks code on it!!
 

skyking1

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
7,463
Location
washington
Nice to have a 20 for those block heaters. Surprisingly, the work Duramax does not have one. It seems to do OK without it, but I do like how the Ram Cummins is already warm when I use the heat. It will melt a couple of small holes in the ice/snow right above the defroster.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,428
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Forgot to note Outer box is mounted to a Girt for the siding and silicone sealed to the wall face.
 

Crummy

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2017
Messages
918
Location
Idaho
From recent experience you can't run 3 block heaters and 1,800' of "temporary" extension cord to the new wireless internet tower on a 20a- it'll pop and put everyone within a 14mi radius out of internet.
[Wait. What? 1,800' of extension cord?]
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,428
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Wife and her sis ran off for a lunch away day
Went Shopping, bought squat as usual.

I went to it on the truck. Cleaned out cab floor and vacuumed out
Measured ONE More time cut shifter hole in new mat. Calculated or maybe kalcalated for inner most forward seat bolt hole and made a pilot holes then installed mat
Finished installing under dash panels then pulled mattress and sleeper false floor to do the boot seal.
 
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