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Timing case 188d with no marks

Eric a1cnc

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Sep 18, 2020
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New hampshire
I have been trying to find the timing marks on my fly wheel since I put my engine together. Initially I though the marks were just rusty. I finally found a small wire wheel that would reach in the hole and cleaned the flywheel as much as I can. I still see no marks. I saw a video of someone else's flywheel that looked like a tape or something was stuck to the flywheel original and maybe that's gone on mine. Does anyone know what the measurement would be before tdc with a dial indicator to make new marks at 8Btdc? I checked my manuals and didn't find it in mine.

TIA
 

thepumpguysc

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U can use the injection pump marks to get u dam close..
Remove the side cover window on the inj pump, rotate the engine IN THE CORRECT ROTATION and wait for the 2 lines to meet..
You’ll either b at TDC or 8* BTDC..
Then start cleaning the flywheel..
good luck
 

Eric a1cnc

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Thanks Pump guy,
I did all that. But, so far I can't see any marks even with a rotary wire brush. The flywheel has some rust pitting due to there being no cover over the inspection hole from LONG before I got the machine. I am planning on pulling an injector and I have a long dial indicator I will use to find tdc. I was just hoping somewhere there would be a reference to how many thou. or MM before tdc was actually 8 btdc. If I knew the rod length I found a program online that will calculate it. Alas So far I haven't found the rod length either.
 

Eric a1cnc

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New hampshire
Thanks tinkerer
Label on engine says 8btdc.
The operator manual says to use timing marks that, A I can't find, and B are not as easy to view as the pretty pictures even if they were there. On my engine there is a part of the dozer that obstructs the view in to the timing view port and makes turning the engine over through the hole nearly impossible. Also my timing pointer isn't there either.
I will prevail! Just was hoping someone might have run into this before. I have seen the measurement btdc for other engines that is why I thought it might be in someones old manual or something.
 

Eric a1cnc

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New hampshire
It is in a 1970 case 350. I rebuilt the engine in the dozer and before I put the head on,I had #1 at tdc. Then I lined up the marks on all the gears before I put the injection pump on. I am now wondering if I actually installed the pump at tdc because it runs ok but has always seemed like the timing is late.
 

Coy Lancaster

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service tech
It is in a 1970 case 350. I rebuilt the engine in the dozer and before I put the head on,I had #1 at tdc. Then I lined up the marks on all the gears before I put the injection pump on. I am now wondering if I actually installed the pump at tdc because it runs ok but has always seemed like the timing is late.
The 188's timed on 8 degrees before top dead center. Check your crankshaft pulley and make sure there are no marks there and also check the left side of engine for a cover on bell housing and check for pointer and marks.
 

Eric a1cnc

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SIGH...
Please read the previous posts. I have looked in the operating manual and the service manual, I have looked at the label on the valve cover, I have looked in the opening, I have tried with a rotary wire brush to clean the flywheel, I have looked at the front pulley for marks.There is no pointer in my timing window and there are no marks remaining in there.
 

Tinkerer

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You aren't the first one to have this problem, Eric.
I remember a thread a while back and the OP had the same problem. Sorry but I don't know when that was.
No marks on the flywheel and none on the crankshaft dampener.
Best guess was someone had removed and replaced one or the other at some time and replaced it with one with the missing timing marks.
 

thepumpguysc

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Master Inj.Pump rebuilder
Eric, IDK if u can get 8* from just turning the pump..?? But it’s worth a try..
Make a starting scratch mark and turn the pump..
1 word of CAUTION.. TIGHTEN THE MOUNTING NUTS BACK UP BEFORE STARTING THE ENGINE..& do so after each adjustment.!!
Good luck
 

Eric a1cnc

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New hampshire
So, I looked back in the manual. It does say that when the timing marks on the gears are aligned that is TDC. I THINK that is where it was when i re-installed the injection pump. This is why I am now jonesing on checking the correct timing. I have a used con rod in the shed. I am going to measure the center to center length on. Then with this link I should be able to figure out the measurement I need.
http://dansmc.com/mc_software2.htm
 

Eric a1cnc

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New hampshire
As accurately as I can measure the rod is 7" center to center and the stroke for the 188d is 4.125"
According to the calcs in that program which are in metric units. I need to be .0259" Down before tdc to be at 8 BTDC. I will follow up once I can get to the dozer to check and see it any of that makes sense and see if my pump marks line up.
 

56wrench

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if not, is the crank pulley easy to get to? i can walk you through the procedure used on the Deutz BF6L913 engines when we had low power complaints under warranty. i had to verify the correct timing before Deutz allowed me to pull the injection pump and send it to an authorized bosch repair shop. it involved finding TRUE TOP DEAD CENTRE in case the damper was marked wrong from the factory. i think the tolerance was +/- 1 degree. you can make your own pointer for the crank pulley with this method and it is extremely accurate although the flywheel being larger would be the most accurate if the engine was out of the machine
 

DirtyHoe

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Once you find TDC you can calculate approximately 8 degrees by a certain number of teeth on the flywheel. 360 degrees ÷ the number of teeth = degrees between teeth.

Steve
 

Eric a1cnc

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Pretty much everything BUT what I need to get to to time the engine is easy to get to. Even trying to reach the fan to turn the engine is not that easy. The ring gear is off to the side through the inspection window. There is a bulkhead near enough to the engine that anything that will fit through the hole and reach the teeth only has about 1/8-1/4 swing. So, IF the flywheel moves I am lucky to move 1 tooth at a time through there. I would be interested in the procedure you used 56 wrench. It's snowing here so I won't be doing this for a couple days at least.
I appreciate all the ideas
 

Tinkerer

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Removing the starter is a pain in the ###, but that should give you access to the teeth.
Seems really strange the timing marks aren't on the flywheel.
I can understand that someone may have broken the pointer off prying with something.
 

56wrench

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Its fairly involved so here goes. Find the best spot on the crank pulley that's easiest to see and to get to. Remove the valve cover. Firing order for a 4 cyl should be 1-3-4-2. Turn the engine over until the valves on #4 are on the rock position( exhaust closing and intake starting to open), #1 cyl should have both valve rockers loose. This puts you close to tdc for either cyl. It may be easier to bar the engine over if you remove the starter to get to the flywheel. Make a pointer and install. It should be as rigid as possible. Bar the engine back about 90 degrees before tdc. Find a way to carefully wedge a 1/4 inch thick shim( a 1/4 inch allen wrench will also work) between the tip of the valve stem and the rocker arm. This forces and holds the valve open. Either valve will work. I usually use a sharp flat screwdriver to gradually wiggle and force it in, being careful not to dislodge the retainer and you do NOT want to bend the valve stem and you do NOT want the valve keepers to pop out. With the valve held open, CAREFULLY bar the engine over until you feel the piston come up against the valve. Scribe a light mark on the pulley in line with the pointer. Back the piston away from the valve. Carefully remove the shim and let the valve close. Now bar the engine approximately 90 degrees past tdc. On the SAME valve, CAREFULLY insert the same shim to hold the valve open again. Now bar the engine BACK toward tdc until you feel the valve touch the piston. Make another light scribe on the pulley in line with the pointer. Again, back the piston away from the valve and carefully remove the shim from under the rocker arm. Now you have 2 scribe marks on the pulley and EXACTLY half way between the two (around the circumference), is TRUE TDC. Use a cold chisel and make a permanent mark at this location. Now measure the diameter of the crank pulley where you made the chisel mark. Millimeters is the most accurate but use which ever you are confident with. Using basic math, calculate the circumference ( PI X D or 3.142 X dia). Take this circumference number and divide it by 360(degrees). this will give you the number of millimeters for each degree of the circumference. Multiply this number by the degrees of advance required-- in your case 8 degrees. Using a flexible ruler(or tape) use this total to measure back BEFORE the TRUE tdc mark and make your mark on the pulley. Bar the engine back to about 30 degrees BTDC and slowly advance toward the mark so as to remove the gear backlash as you come up to the 8 degree timing mark on the pulley. With the 8 degree mark aligned with the pointer, the timing marks on the injection pump should line up. it sounds complicated but its actually not. the hardest part may be barring the engine back and forth so many times. i made a turning tool out of an old starter for the deutz engines that required removal of the starter but worked well. it may be easier to have a second person to bar the engine over as you watch the marks align with the pointer. and don't have a 300lb yard ape hanging off a 5 ft bar to turn it over. care and finesse is the key here. to make it even easier, you could pull all the injectors to avoid fighting the compression. i can try to clarify this if you need. i have proof-read it a few times but it should be right. this is the basic procedure i learned at a deutz service school back in the early 80's
 
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