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DEF Delight or not??

HardRockNM

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Jan 14, 2020
Messages
101
Location
New Mexico
Occupation
Miner
I'm wondering about the evidence of used equipment values on older non electronic machines rising. It might have been three to five years ago but I sure can't quantify that today. Do you have some reference that I can review to research the topic. I deal with nearly all the equipment dealers in my area and all say the trend is that used equipment that is available is too old and worn out to make any money with.

This is a very niche example, but it does illustrate the point: ten or fifteen years ago, small haul trucks for underground mines would sell for just a few thousand dollars. Now, you can't touch those same trucks in running condition for less than $20k on a good day, or often $40k with how some dealers price their wares. Bear in mind that these are simple machines that have seen hard service. I blame emissions, the price of gold, and the tendency of manufacturers to "gold-plate" their new machines.

In underground mining, no piece of equipment is too old to make money with, or so the mine operators seem to believe. The cost gap between well-maintained used iron from the 80s and a new machine is often an order of magnitude or more, so the same old equipment is continuously rebuilt and resold. Hell, some mine operators will actively seek out designs that haven't been built in 25 years.
 

Midnightmoon

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Messages
445
Location
Ny
The machine here has an electric problem the ignition code points to harness issues. If these two codes set at the same time you can delete this or that but will still have a problem until the original issue is diagnosed properly and fixed

What's interesting some and probably all manufactures are not selling replacement engines that are not tier 4. This too will increase the value of older equipment. I wonder if manufactures that refurbish equipment are replacing engines with tier 4? We are moving to a time were parts will also become unavailable for non electronic engines.
 

Birken Vogt

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Nov 30, 2003
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5,305
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Grass Valley, Ca
The thing keeping the lid on this all is EPA threats of fines and such.

If freedom was allowed to prevail, and America was to return, T4 rules would be noticed to be too ridiculously restrictive, and the reliability guys would return to their seat at the table on the engine OEMs.

At the same time, aftermarket people would start making and selling new ECMs that would allow current T4 engines to run like diesel engines used to run, air in, inject fuel, exhaust out. Not just Eastern European hackers but US based people with warranties and such. And the associated removal of useless components.

Caterpillar already has a name for this, and I am sure the others do too, LRC, Less Restrictive Countries.

It can be done, the system we are all working under at the moment is simply artificial, generated by some bureaucrats' keyboards, and other keystrokes are all it would take to undo it....
 

BigWrench55

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Somewhere
I have said this somewhere in a another thread.
I would like to see a carbon footprint analysis done with a teir4 machine. They burn more fuel to artificially keep exhaust temps up,and we are filling landfills with 2.5 gallon jugs of d.e.f.
All for cleaner smoke. How is this any better?
 

Midnightmoon

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2013
Messages
445
Location
Ny
I have to assume we are not the only country. Sure mexico doesnt care about emissions but it's not just the epa driving emission standards. The car companies are driven not just by epa but by other countries. Even if epa cut all the regulations would companies make specific models for the usa. Possible but not for long. One of the reasons mexico gets electronic free engines is there fuel has to much sulfur to even run in a tier 4.
 

John C.

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The cost of used non electric machines is going up. We have sold alot of older machines for pretty high prices for very used poor quality machines.

I take it you are a salesman then? Can you provide an example, maybe a model and year of manufacture and I'll run a survey.

This is a very niche example, but it does illustrate the point: ten or fifteen years ago, small haul trucks for underground mines would sell for just a few thousand dollars. Now, you can't touch those same trucks in running condition for less than $20k on a good day, or often $40k with how some dealers price their wares.

Same with this. Could you provide a model and year of manufacture. Twenty thousand dollars is about the floor for most any ten year old machine that runs and has ten thousand or more hours on the clock. So far I haven't been able to actually put together proof that can't be explained by inflation.
 

Midnightmoon

Senior Member
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Nov 9, 2013
Messages
445
Location
Ny
I'm not a salesman I see used machines sold where I work as a tech. We just sold a 544 jd 35k machine was a wreck. Center joint shot. To get it reliable and fixed 20k. Skid steer non running with a tier4 engine sold for 20k. I have no idea on used prices everything seems high because your looking at 10k to fix basic issues. Our shop stays busy fixing great auction deals people get. 10k junk loader with 15k into it to make it move and stop. Theres alot more to fix on that one. I cant see constructiin guys buying used up machines to run there business with. The down time outways the savings
 

John C.

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I've seen that kind of thing here but those buyers are the hobby people or those that think they can do their own thing on their own land and then sell the machine for more than they paid for it. What that comes down to is uniformed buyers chasing a dream. What I'm looking for is some kind of proof that mechanical engine machines are bringing more money now adjusted for inflation than they did five, ten or more years ago.
 

BigWrench55

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Something I noticed and could possibly be driving up prices. Companies here are buying up pre emission machines and trading them in under the t.e.r.p. program. Basically cash for clunkers but for equipment. And I also seen dealers here are buying up all the pre emission machines that they can get their hands on out of California and selling them at a premium. That's what I have noticed in my tiny corner of the world.
 

John C.

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That's something I might be able to use. What state are you in and can you provide a dealer name?
 

BigWrench55

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I live in Texas.
Holt cat, R.D.O. equipment (John deere), Romco equipment (Volvo/ Hitachi) Kirby Smith(kamatsu). Those are the big players.
 

AzIron

Senior Member
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Jun 14, 2016
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1,541
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Az
Mechanicale machines adjusted to inflation have a consistent base value last may I bought a 314c cat ex out of southern California for 31k it had 5k on the clock it looks worn but is mechanically sound that was a deal especially since the same machine new right now is over 220k

I am looking at a new backhoe right now 3 month wait to build my order i just bought a mini out of the rental fleet 2 month wait to order skid steers are over 45 days to get order excavators are at least 2 months from local deere dealer the cat dealer has the opinion that they stock what i want and wont talk about ordering what i want you cant find a skip loader in any condition of any series for less than 25k right now

Point is work here is on fire people are running anything they can get there hands on used equipment at auction is bring a premium because new equipment is months away and the jobs to lose money on are going on today so it becomes a mute point to worry about a premium price

Now that may not be sound buissness but that's the industry attitude here and i see more new iron all the time

So emissions is not the driver today it was 4 years ago no doubt and with age of equipment emissions are never going to be the driver again everyone is getting used to it case has eliminated egr on most new equipment i know deere is trying to and i think has 2 test backhoes without egr so as things progress it wont go away but it might be simplified to create reliability
 

John C.

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So emissions is not the driver today it was 4 years ago no doubt and with age of equipment emissions are never going to be the driver again everyone is getting used to it case has eliminated egr on most new equipment i know deere is trying to and i think has 2 test backhoes without egr so as things progress it wont go away but it might be simplified to create reliability

That is the point I was looking for. Basically, right now the real issue is availability of new iron. The other observation I have is that as the prices of new iron increases, so to does the price for used iron. Any price change in new will nearly always affect the price for used. From my perch, I'm seeing that all the industries have generally accepted that electronics and pollution controls are the new normal. I'll do some research on Pauls list of dealers and see if the hypothesis of mechanical's prices are being inflated in the markets as a preference over electronics.
 

Midnightmoon

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Paul the carbon foot print side interests me a bit so I started looking into it. The new emmisions standards are for pm and nox. No mention of carbon. So from a carbon footprint standard it's clear new machines have a bigger one hands down. Plastic def jugs, production of def, more parts being made. The overall footprint on these new machines has to be greater. Carbon levels dont seem to be a concern. It's just nox and pm. Desiel engines have always had a smaller footprint compared to gas on the carbon side. I couldn't find any info other then renting machines lowers the carbon footprint. I quess I need to search more or they dont want to admit deisel engines now have a bigger footprint then before but we are breathing cleaner warmer air
 

BigWrench55

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Midnightmoon,
I see your point and I agree. But if we are forced to " do good with our environment " and by machines with emissions standards. Then we shouldn't split hairs with which is worse. I am not saying you are splitting hairs, but our environmental do gooders certainly seem to be. Somewhere there's a happy medium and government sure as hell isn't qualified to get us there. I could go on forever on this subject and more. It just seems like we regress more than we progress.
 

Tugger2

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British Columbia
My guess is the preference for mechanical is driven by a smaller group of the independent owner operator, repair ourselves type of guys. Im certainly one of those dinosaurs .
Im demobing from a 3 month job and was working alongside a new RT wondering whats really wrong with an older conventional crane if its maintained well . If my stuff worked a bit steadier id employ a couple of guys full time in my shop , putting more people to work utilizing resources you have instead of laying out huge capital for things that you cant maintain yourself.
In terms of carbon foot print , whats the cost of cutting up the old stuff, transporting it ,melting it reproducing it and adding a ton of plastic to it. Compared to just maintaining it . Ill bet theres not a truck or a machine made now an operator could start his career on and retire on the same machine. It would be interesting to study the value of resources consumed on that basis compared to work done over time.
 

Midnightmoon

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I try to stay out of the p word it's all corrupt and for the good of someone bottom line. I was just regurgitating what I read. What's interesting is carbon footprint has nothing to do with tier 4 emissions standards. I think we are off topic. Maybe start a new forum category on tier 4 specific engines. On one side I enjoy being able to use a computer to monitor the engine. If you look at the right parameters you can see a bad injector before it causes problems. I grew up with computers as computers grew. From dos to now. I like the ability to use computers for diagnostics but its completely taken and diagnostic ability away from the owner which is bad. New laws are opening up the ability for the owner to purchase diagnostic equipment but its limited and expensive. Who will pay thousands of dollars and annual fees for a few pieces of equipment. The playing field should be level to some extent and it will like cars with obd2. It's a double edged sword when the customer starts doing electrical diagnostics it will make my job harder when they bring in there machine with harnesses pulled apart and wiring bypassed in an effort to bypass sensors with resistors that dont work on smart sensors
 

HardRockNM

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Jan 14, 2020
Messages
101
Location
New Mexico
Occupation
Miner
Same with this. Could you provide a model and year of manufacture. Twenty thousand dollars is about the floor for most any ten year old machine that runs and has ten thousand or more hours on the clock. So far I haven't been able to actually put together proof that can't be explained by inflation.

Young's Machine 960-series trucks in particular. Model year isn't really meaningful as year-to-year changes have been minimal since the 70s, when YMC adopted the side-facing operator's seat. Hours, condition, and build sheet (transmission, engine, exhaust, ROPS, etc.) are the main distinguishing factors for any given machine. They're a sufficiently niche truck that I'm not sure how much sales data there is outside of Savona Equipment and a handful of other mining equipment dealers. I do know that we were quoted about $170k for a new-build 960 in late 2019 or 2020.
 
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