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Battery Powered Equipment

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AzIron

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I will speak to deeres plan that I know of for the most part was made in response to case plans from what I know it's a power company that is doing the testing up in the northeast

I would think this is a 20 plus year industry change cause the tech in batterys needs to increase so the verdict will still be out on weather the industry will adapt
 
NepeanGC

NepeanGC

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The thing about electric machines, is that it opens the door to efficiency. If you can shrink the systems and only run what is needed, when needed, total energy consumption will be reduced.

I bet if you actually measured energy requirements of an average shovel or equipment, the energy usage isn't as technically efficient as it could be. Electric opens up the door to running multiple parallel systems. So that if all you're doing is swinging, only that circuit is active.Engines are sized to run multiple functions at once, hence technically oversized if only a single function is being used.

An excavator, and a lot of heavy equipment, is a perfect example where mass isn't a bad thing, it's beneficial. So a massive battery pack could offset counterweight requirements, and could also allow for lowering of C of G.
A lot of careful work will need to be done to isolate the battery packs. A massive complicated battery pack will isn't going to last in a high vibration environment.

All that said, still have the charging issue...Portable nuke power would be kickass, but somehow I don't think that'll ever happen.
 
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suladas

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John C. said:
For those of us working away from the grid, unless a magic solar charger comes about with 1 hour charge times that last over 10 work hours, not gonna happen. How heavy is 300+ hp of battery power for 12 hours anyways?

Exactly!
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I don't think size or weight would be a problem on a track hoe that isn't zero swing. Take away the engine and counterweight and you got a ton of space and need a lot of weight to replace them.
 
CM1995

CM1995

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Running what I brung and taking what I win
suladas said:
There is not a single general here who would ever consider letting you plug in equipment like that. Are you crazy? If it costs more then a dollar it's too much money.
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That's why I brought the question up.

CM1995 said:
Seriously if this electric equipment nonsense is coming too fruition who is going to be responsible for the job site temp power and the bill? Charging these new fangled electric diggers is going to cost some serous $$. How does that play out in the design, bid, build world? Whose general conditions does this cost get added to?
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Just the temp power setup would be $$$ let alone the power used to charge 4-5 pieces of yellow iron every day on a small commercial job. This setup would big a huge increase in the cost of general conditions of any project, the larger the project the more $$ it'll cost.

I drove through a residential project close to my house today and they had 4 - 740B Cat 6x6's, brand new Kommie 350i decked out, Kommie 400, D6N, Kommie D65, Hamm padfoot and 4 hard rock drills on excavators where they were blasting. Now how in the hell are they going to charge that much iron on a daily basis in a master planned development where the UG power lines were spec'd for residential development?
 
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MarshallPowerGen

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Realize there is a strong likelyhood lots of this equipment will run smaller charging gensets to maintain the battery system while operating. This way they can avoid some of the emissions standards with a 49hp engine and keep the system maintained and reduce overnight charges.

All I know is as a generator guy, it's all job security to me.:D
 
OFF

OFF

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Locomotives are electric powered. Don't be fooled, that diesel engine you hear and see belching out black smoke is just its charging system, nothing more. Of course, when you're a locomotive, weight is your friend.
 
John C.

John C.

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I don't believe it actually charges anything. It is a chemical conversion through mechanical means into motive force. It doesn't actually charge anything unless a person decides through ignorance, stupidity or misfortune to get between any of the power forms of chemical to motive force. You can get drowned, burned, shocked or run over and there still wouldn't be any batteries to be charged.
 
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Spud_Monkey

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Welp only thing I know is that besides charging time can’t be faster than discharging times so...
t = {C x (V0 - V1)} / I
t = 0.5 x C x (V02 - V12) / P

t Discharge time (sec.)
C Capacitance (F)
V0 Charge voltage (V)
V1 Discharge voltage (V)
Vb Nominal battery voltage (V)
I Discharge current (A)
R Discharge resistance (Ω)
P power (W)
which means capacity of what goes out can only go back in and that doesn’t mean it won’t hurt the batteries doing so.
 
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Welder Dave

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A diesel electric system like a locomotive just uses electrics for the drive instead of mechanical means. No different than electric drive haul trucks. A smaller engine may drive a generator to charge a battery electric system but to provide enough power to run the system would require pretty much the same size engine as the mechanical version so there would be no need for batteries.
 
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suladas

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CM1995 said:
That's why I brought the question up.



Just the temp power setup would be $$$ let alone the power used to charge 4-5 pieces of yellow iron every day on a small commercial job. This setup would big a huge increase in the cost of general conditions of any project, the larger the project the more $$ it'll cost.

I drove through a residential project close to my house today and they had 4 - 740B Cat 6x6's, brand new Kommie 350i decked out, Kommie 400, D6N, Kommie D65, Hamm padfoot and 4 hard rock drills on excavators where they were blasting. Now how in the hell are they going to charge that much iron on a daily basis in a master planned development where the UG power lines were spec'd for residential development?
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Sounds to me like a good reason to avoid commercial work :p I have no patience for how stupid and cheap all the big GC's are here. I know I wouldn't be sad to never set foot on another one. Current site, you are supposed to be wearing a mask inside the cab while operating equipment, even if only one operator, and if caught you're gone no warnings. Not sure why i'm still there, I don't even wear a mask outside, the stupidity of requiring people to wear a mask outside when no one else is within 100' of you boggles the mind.....
 
K

Kiwi-truckwit

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New Zealand
OFF said:
Locomotives are electric powered. Don't be fooled, that diesel engine you hear and see belching out black smoke is just its charging system, nothing more. Of course, when you're a locomotive, weight is your friend.
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Slightly different situation.
Locos cross the line where it becomes more efficient to run a generator to power electric drive motors, than it would be to have a mechanical powertrain.

If it was more efficient for smaller vehicles/plant, manufacturers would already be doing it.
 
JD955SC

JD955SC

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This kind of thing works for indoor operations and light utility use in cities and maybe suburbia.

You look at man lifts. You always find them dead when you need them. At least those you can snake a drop cord to them and get them charged. Imagine the lazy “operator” forgetting to charge the backhoe constantly and you need it first thing in the morning. Diesel you can fuel up and be gone in less than 10 minutes. Doesn’t work the same way for the ‘lectric, not at all, unless you have swappable battery packs ready to go and the crane to install them.

now diesel-electric machines like the D6 XE? Infinitely more viable because you aren’t depending on a big juice charger. But it still has to be the he right machine for it. Smaller equipment it doesn’t make any sense either.
 
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excavator

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What I have seen is that electrical systems on equipment seem to be way over engineered. When I started as a mechanic there was one wire from the ignition switch down to the starter relay. I was on a machine the other day that required 8 relays to function before it would start. I have a customer with a Deere 644K Hybrid, sweet running and smooth operating machine. Diesel engine running a generator which runs an electric motor to an all mechanical powertrain. Seems a bit complicated but it does operate smoother and get better fuel usage. In the past I've worked on log processors ect. with cords running from the cab to the head and we all know how well electrical cords ect. hold up in the logging industry. I now work on a number of aerial lifts and 80-90 percent of the problems are electrical on machines with just a few thousand hours on them. Electric drive sounds good in theory but I always say that theory and murphy are brothers.
 
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AzIron

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StumpyWally said:
I think the eventual answer is going to be hydrogen fuel cells...for both vehicles & heavy equipment. Batteries are just a stepping stone...
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What's the real science behind hydrogen and why it's not being used
 
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Evening Digger

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Shimmy1 said:
If this is accurate, it would be unbelievable. 12 hours charging 40 amps @ 240 volts would be roughly 115 kWh of power. At $.08 per kW, it would cost about $10 per day to charge. Now, I don't own a diesel hoe that would be comparable, but I'm guessing 1.5-2 gal per hour might be average fuel consumption, so 1.5 x 12 is 18 gallons of fuel, 18 x $2 would be $36 per day for fuel. There is no way I could believe a electric hoe could be ran for a third the cost. Someone correct me if my math is wrong?
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Shimmy your math is right. My Tesla has a 100kW battery pack. I charge it on 208v, it draws 32 amps, and charge time from 5% to 100% charge is around 14 hours.

Our power is about 10.6 cents/kWh, so worst case it could cost me $10.60 to travel 300 miles. Fortunately we have solar panels and we can often charge the car for only what our power company calls the "avoided cost", which is what they pay me for power I make and sell back to them. That's .045 cents/kWh. I can drive 300 miles for about $4.50.

This electric backhoe may not be for everyone, but it ain't all bad either. If it's built well, it will be cheap to operate and reliable.
 
crane operator

crane operator

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Liebherr has a new all electric crawler just out, has electric cords plugging into the under carriage. Better pay attention when you go to crawl ahead. That said, I'd love a AT that had a diesel for down the road, and a battery/ electric drive when at the jobsite. Fire up the big lower if you need to charge the battery.

Electric is getting popular with the contractors working in london, they have emissions restrictions. I've read articles on telehandlers, manlifts, etc. that are all electric. Even saw a carrydeck that would be great for in plant work.

Electric would eliminate a lot of our idling time in the crane application. And the full torque at 1 rpm that electric provides is hard to beat.

I'm hoping I can skip from my tier 1 old school equipment straight to no emission equipment, and miss the in between bad parts. I'd prefer someone else with deeper pockets to do the testing and working out the bugs.
 
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S

Spud_Monkey

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Evening Digger said:
Shimmy your math is right. My Tesla has a 100kW battery pack. I charge it on 208v, it draws 32 amps, and charge time from 5% to 100% charge is around 14 hours.

Our power is about 10.6 cents/kWh, so worst case it could cost me $10.60 to travel 300 miles. Fortunately we have solar panels and we can often charge the car for only what our power company calls the "avoided cost", which is what they pay me for power I make and sell back to them. That's .045 cents/kWh. I can drive 300 miles for about $4.50.

This electric backhoe may not be for everyone, but it ain't all bad either. If it's built well, it will be cheap to operate and reliable.
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And when the power goes out on your house you can back feed the Tesla into your home to power it up and same as such for electric equipment instead of a generator that might not work due to stuck float or clogged jet. Bet you didn't know you can't charge your Tesla in temperatures below 32 degrees Fahrenheit without the coolant heater on board that flows warming coolant around the batteries. Charging lithium in below freezing temperatures will damage them.
 
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hosspuller

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Spud_Monkey said:
snip

Charging lithium in below freezing temperatures will damage them.
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Just ran into this problem a day ago. After using a battery tool outside, swapped the battery into the charger. Charger said "NO go" with a red light. :( Warm the discharged battery, and the charger did its job with a happy green light. :)
 
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