I have an early (1964?) JD 450 loader with the 4219d engine. Smokes bad out the breather tube and the stack. Even worse under load. Uses some oil and coolant but never mixes the two. Oil pressure is good. Trans works well, undercarriage is 70-80%. I’m thinking of doing an in-frame rebuild. New sleeves, pistons, rod bearings and have the head redone. Is a JD kit the way to go? Are there any aftermarket kits that are reliable? I’m planning on radiator boil out and new water pump and hoses at same time.
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JD 450 Crawler Loader Engine
- Thread starter crpohio
- Start date
Better off to pull the engine in my opinion, sounds like a blown head gasket, which was common in my experience. You can get the head done, but if you want it to hold you need to get the block decked and the liner counterbores (If I'm remembering right) done at the machine shop. Make sure you ask them to double check the block webs with the liners removed, we had a couple that the inside web cracked along the length of the block most likely from some idgit over-torquing the head bolts in a failed attempt to keep head gaskets in them.
Ok thanks. I will know more when it gets into the shop. Does JD actually make these sleeves and pistons or are they just rebadged aftermarket? I want a good liner/piston but would be nice to save a bit on the rebuild. What's the best aftermarket option?
oarwhat
Senior Member
I've used rebuild kits from Agkits. They used name brand parts like FP pistons and fel pro gaskets. Give them a call and see what's in there kit. They were very helpful on the phone.
Thanks! I'll give them a call. I'm thinking I should test compression before I remove the head. It starts really hard now. But reading about that it may be pump timing also. Of course the oil usage and smoking out stack and bad out of the breather tells me it probably time for sleeves and pistons.....
old-iron-habit
Senior Member
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Curious if it sat for a number of years or if it slowly went south over time. If it may have sat it could be stuck rings. No harm in working the crap out of it for 3 to 4 hours at high temperature, close to hot but not boiling over. Put a big disc or pull some big trees with the branches on and smooth some ground well you are at it. Coolent is concerning. No signs of where it is going. Is the cap good?
It was used infrequently before I purchased it. I’ve worked it hard clearing and digging. Coolant usage is not consistent. I have not tested the cap. The smoke from the breather tube is heavy and worsens under load. It uses oil. No coolant in the oil. Oil pressure is great.
old-iron-habit
Senior Member
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- Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
Chances are as you worked it hard when warm its worn out and not stuck. Old Cat engines were notorious for smoking and drooling when not worked hard enough. A little work saved a lot of overhauls on them and cheap to try.
Yes. I’ve seen some older diesel tractors that stopped smoking and wet stacking after a few hours of snorting. I’m thinking this engine is going to need to come apart. I’m sure I’ll have more questions after it gets into to shop. With the oil pressure holding as good as it does, I’m hoping the main bearings and crank are still good.
oarwhat
Senior Member
We had a 450 dozer. Always ran great. After sitting one winter it wouldn't start. Even ether didn't help at all. The rings were stuck so bad when the pistons were out rings came out in pieces. Didn't bother trying to remove them just installed new pistons.
This engine has been a hard starter since I've had it. It needs ether to start usually. I've heard there are kits that help w starting, higher compression? I think Reliance makes one.
Tinkerer
Senior Member
The piston top appears to be very clean in the photo. Yes ?
Do they all look like that ?
One clean piston indicates water intrusion when running.
Do they all look like that ?
One clean piston indicates water intrusion when running.
JPV
Senior Member
Which is caused by a dirt from a bad airfilter
Been a few years since I've a four banger JD head off but it looks to me the valves are worn up into the head enough to cause lower compression and harder starting, a real problem for deere back in that vintage.
If you have a really good machine shop nearby, you might be by with boring the bad hole and refitting with an oversized piston, and all new rings in the other three holes, if not buy the whole kit and put them all in new.
As for what brand of kit to buy, not sure its that critical unless your putting a lot of hours on this machine every year and plan to keep it for 10k hours or more.
As for if its got deere pistons in it or not, don't think I'd worry much about it myself, any good machine shop can get whatever you need to put it back together, don't think deere makes their parts for machines that old any more anyhow, think they bid that stuff all out and just stick their own logos on the box anyhow.
If I recall, Dubuque Iowa is where that engine was made back in the day, I'd bet money they don't have any of the tooling to even make those parts today themselves.
If you have a really good machine shop nearby, you might be by with boring the bad hole and refitting with an oversized piston, and all new rings in the other three holes, if not buy the whole kit and put them all in new.
As for what brand of kit to buy, not sure its that critical unless your putting a lot of hours on this machine every year and plan to keep it for 10k hours or more.
As for if its got deere pistons in it or not, don't think I'd worry much about it myself, any good machine shop can get whatever you need to put it back together, don't think deere makes their parts for machines that old any more anyhow, think they bid that stuff all out and just stick their own logos on the box anyhow.
If I recall, Dubuque Iowa is where that engine was made back in the day, I'd bet money they don't have any of the tooling to even make those parts today themselves.
Thanks. I don’t use it daily by any means. It’s a “farm use” machine. It’s darn handy to have around and I’m going to put all new sleeves and pistons in it. I’m going to check on a Reliance kit. I’ve been told they have a kit that makes starting easier. If not I’ll check on Agkits.com and see what they can do. I’m not opposed to doing it right even though it’s not my daily money maker.
I am going to have the head decked and valves redone for sure. I really only want to do this once.
Then I’ll sort out the left steering clutch that’s not great... otherwise it’s been a solid machine that saves me time and gets projects done so much quicker.
I am going to have the head decked and valves redone for sure. I really only want to do this once.
Then I’ll sort out the left steering clutch that’s not great... otherwise it’s been a solid machine that saves me time and gets projects done so much quicker.
I did replace all filters and fluids when I got it. It has always smoked from the breather and stack since I got it. (Gotten much worse recently) Maybe that’s the initial cause years ago? It’s always been a hard starter, it’s needed a shot starting fluid to start when cold since I got it.
oarwhat
Senior Member
I do not think you need a kit for easier starting. That engine wouldn't start because it was so worn out.