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Pricing excavation work.

fastline

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2011
Messages
1,104
Location
OK
No guys, I was just mentioning the "max capacity" in the sweet spot. I realize there is a wide range. We also have a crane in another location and I am usually the guy spec'ing the lifts. If I really needed to lift 27K, I would not employ this machine.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
You need to change who you work for. I have repeat commercial customers that understand what it cost to build a project and aren't scared to spend the money to get it done on time and on budget. I know this sounds simple but find customers who know how to make money with the projects you build for them.

That was just one really bad customer, once I get paid in full for this job I will never do work for again.

But so many are like that and short sighted. Commercial grade beam, they went with someone else, apparently he does all their excavation and they thought my price was high, but they asked me to quote because they weren't happy with his work lately, I asked if they were comparing apples to apples and of course was told yes. Now the pile guy and cribber are pissed because it's a mess and refuse to do anymore until excavation is fixed and they want me to come clean it up because the guy is too busy and "it just needs a bit of cleaning up". Guy didn't leave enough room, not level, didn't scrape interior for slab, piled all dirt on site instead of hauling away, and a million other details that I included in my quote. Now I told them I don't even know if i'm interested based on my original price because I don't know how big of a mess it is. I do enjoy when things like this blow up in people's faces though. I quoted $54k for the job, the guy who did it rented a 8 ton machine and figured he could send a operator to excavate it in 2 days, and then 1 day to just push in the backfill later. No one is quoting that kind of money if a job can be properly done in that amount of time. I would love to witness him trying to backfill in january with a 8 ton machine though.
 

AzIron

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
1,541
Location
Az
That was just one really bad customer, once I get paid in full for this job I will never do work for again.

But so many are like that and short sighted. Commercial grade beam, they went with someone else, apparently he does all their excavation and they thought my price was high, but they asked me to quote because they weren't happy with his work lately, I asked if they were comparing apples to apples and of course was told yes. Now the pile guy and cribber are pissed because it's a mess and refuse to do anymore until excavation is fixed and they want me to come clean it up because the guy is too busy and "it just needs a bit of cleaning up". Guy didn't leave enough room, not level, didn't scrape interior for slab, piled all dirt on site instead of hauling away, and a million other details that I included in my quote. Now I told them I don't even know if i'm interested based on my original price because I don't know how big of a mess it is. I do enjoy when things like this blow up in people's faces though. I quoted $54k for the job, the guy who did it rented a 8 ton machine and figured he could send a operator to excavate it in 2 days, and then 1 day to just push in the backfill later. No one is quoting that kind of money if a job can be properly done in that amount of time. I would love to witness him trying to backfill in january with a 8 ton machine though.

When I go to fix someone's eles job its strictly by the hour and there are a lot of coffe breaks
 

Flat Thunder Channel

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
378
Location
Ohio
What a bummer fixing someone else's half butted job. It would definitely have to cost more than the original quoted price!
 

skyking1

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
7,465
Location
washington
I had to remind my boss today that if a plumbing job takes me two days to dig, it will take just as long to restore it. Everybody seems to think you just toss that dirt back and hit it and done. I am working around all those plumbing stubs, I have to bring out the excess that is displaced by bedding, and i have to grade it at least as good as I found it. Those stubs are plumb and need to stay that way too.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
When I go to fix someone's eles job its strictly by the hour and there are a lot of coffe breaks

They don't want anything hourly. When they first mentioned about fixing up, I said I won't do anything for you for less then $5,000. But I will be figuring on $400/hr for my 6 ton. The reason I had to go high was it will be backfilled in january and needs 98% compaction so I had to figure on buying good clay for it which isn't easy that time of year.

What a bummer fixing someone else's half butted job. It would definitely have to cost more than the original quoted price!

It very well could cost more then my original quote. It's got quite cold here in the last few days, so they pulled off most of the snow and dug some out, so now it's going to freeze badly and areas like the elavator shaft were dug, but too small so all the banks will be frozen making it more work then originally. The other problem is they are in the huge rush now and are trying to convince the pile guys to weld on the caps before the excavation is fixed, which I said means my 210 can't get in and it will all be 6 ton machine which will take probably 3 times as long.

Last winter I fixed a much smaller site in feburary with piles and learned my lesson how long it takes and not to give anyone a deal for fixing someone elses mess.

It's not 100% the other excavators fault, when I was quoting and asked for existing elevations they had no idea so the shot the site myself, it varied by 19" and this is after the piles were in. I asked why didn't they level the site to the slab grade before piles because it would be a heck of a lot cheaper and easier without 130 piles in the way. And he complained his quote was based on starting before winter, mine was to as I quoted the job like a month ago.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
I had to remind my boss today that if a plumbing job takes me two days to dig, it will take just as long to restore it. Everybody seems to think you just toss that dirt back and hit it and done. I am working around all those plumbing stubs, I have to bring out the excess that is displaced by bedding, and i have to grade it at least as good as I found it. Those stubs are plumb and need to stay that way too.

It really depends on the backfill, but yea generally takes longer then it does to dig it. This one will take easily 3-4 days because it's about 1200' of gradebeam to backfill all to 98% compaction. Or maybe not compacted, apparently the other 3 buildings on the site none of the backfill was compacted and they were like 10' cuts for parkade so who knows.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,260
Location
Canada
If they would have left the snow would probably have made a big difference since we got a big dump after being quite warm the day before. Clearing the snow and driving on the site just pushes the frost deeper. It sounds like one of the jobs where you dictate how it's done or they find someone else. Classic case of... A lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part. Some jobs just aren't worth the hassle. What if they don't want to pay your price at the end?
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
If they would have left the snow would probably have made a big difference since we got a big dump after being quite warm the day before. Clearing the snow and driving on the site just pushes the frost deeper. It sounds like one of the jobs where you dictate how it's done or they find someone else. Classic case of... A lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part. Some jobs just aren't worth the hassle. What if they don't want to pay your price at the end?

It's impossible to explain to some people how badly the frost goes down from driving on it or even removing the snow, they just don't understand. If they don't want to pay my price they can find someone else, I won't even book the job until I have a signed contract for the amount I want. I don't need or care if I do the work. I know how frozen it's going to be and it's hard on the mini so if i'm doing it, i'm gouging them badly for it for their stupidity.

The way they told me I didn't get the job pissed me off, to the point I was about to tell the estimator thanks for wasting my time and having me organize your job, don't bother coming to me for quotes on your other stuff coming up, i'm not interested. First telling me I have the job, then saying my price too high when they never had another comparable one, and just deciding to go with their current guy "because he wanted it and brought a machine to site", and being in such a panic for the price 2 times but not getting me information, then hearing nothing for weeks after they have the price.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,260
Location
Canada
I'd walk and tell them you're not interested. The weather has been weird lately too. Warmer and melting and freezing and then melting and repeating the pattern. There's probably going to be a big sheet of ice on the ground to deal with. You might need some Powerblanket ground thawing blankets but you could add them to the cost if you really wanted the job.

Ground Thawing Heated Blankets for Harsh Climates | Powerblanket
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
Well i'm getting the joy of doing a ton of trenching there, but it's all by the hour so I couldn't careless that it's a complete chit show. So far 2 days and 14 billable hours and machine has worked maybe 6 hours, plumbers electricians and cribbers trying to figure out how the hell they can get it done all trying to work on top of each other. They are trying to put the gradebeam in, while i'm trying to trench services in for plumbers which are suppose to be stubbed into the building 1m, but only found the sanitary which was stubbed .5m outside of building, cannot find the water, if the measurement is correct a screw pile is through the storm. One of the plumbers is confident there was no shut off in the asphalt and there may not even be a water stub anywhere. Completely on hold right now because they need sumps dug which was part of the excavators contract, but they don't want them back they want me to do it but they never issued the plumbers a PO. The best part I like is i'm all by the hour, I don't care about delays, waiting anything. I show up and if I run out of work i'll leave and it's minimum 5 hours. I showed up at 8 and sat around for them to show up to start at 830, and they pay for the half hour lunch. I am perplexed how they make money, they must be charging the general a fortune. The general expects the gradebeam, plumbing, electrical, and slab on grade done by january 11, which is comical.

Frost is down 1-1.5', some spots not too bad. The worst part is piles everywhere and sticking up too far to drive over so it's all done with the 6 ton mini. Probably going to be a months work solid to trench for plumbers and electricians.
 

skyking1

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2020
Messages
7,465
Location
washington
The PM on that job tossed us under the bus, he quipped to the customer that he thought it was a 3 week groundwork. Nobody else, not the owner, other PM, or the plumber think so.
Luckily it has not started and I we got that big grease interceptor cut right out of the schedule by doing it early. We knocked it out in two days, one to dig and set the shoring, then crane set, pull shoring and backfill the next day.
I won't try to do a big structure on the same day as the dig. You never know if you are going to hit a big footing or pipe nobody knows about, or need to set up a pump show if you get into water.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
Are you getting progress payments or some money up front? Based on their past I'd be worried they're going to try and dispute your bill.

No, there is no way anyone would do it and you need a prepaid license to take deposits, that's one thing the government takes really seriously, if you get caught they will give you a ban on incorporating a company, know someone it happened to for 5 years. I'm not working for the general though, i'm working for the plumber, electrician (and cribber who's my brother), both the companies are big i'm not worried about getting paid from them and it's not going to be a large amount of money, maybe $15k. They are a nightmare and cheap, but my brother did work for them through the summer and no issues getting paid once they have issued PO's for something.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,260
Location
Canada
You do have to be bonded to get money up front but I don't believe you have to be to get progress payments for work completed. Lots of people plain wouldn't work for a contractor like the one you described. Not worth the hassle. If 15K isn't a large amount of money why not work on your big money jobs instead?
 

NepeanGC

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
203
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Occupation
#dirtherder
Ya'll must not be in Ontario. Unless there is an established relationship, or some other very specific circumstances, we wont mobilize without some money up front. When I'm feeling particularly generous, I'll make the first milestone when we mobilize to site. There's enough work for us that we will kill a deal when our payment terms aren't agreed to. Bit different with government work, but we've had similar arrangements on federal, and municipal projects.
 

AzIron

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
1,541
Location
Az
I need to change my buissness model majority work is net 30 only for big big jobs can I get a mob fee otherwise its draw on results
 

CM1995

Administrator
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
13,250
Location
Alabama
Occupation
Running what I brung and taking what I win
I need to change my buissness model majority work is net 30 only for big big jobs can I get a mob fee otherwise its draw on results

Yep mine too. Mobilization is a line item on our pay apps but we have to wait 30 to 45 days depending on when we start in the pay cycle. It sucks to start work on the 27th of the month when the cut off date for monthly billing is the 25th. 2 months until you see some $$.
 
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