Pricing excavation work.

fastline said:

I was quite stressed when I pecked out this thread. I have realized now that this is just something I will have to figure out on my own. I think my situation is probably too much to peck out on the net.

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Well, we're certainly game to help if you are game to explain. There are many great professionals here, but also several who own a lot of iron trying to make some side bacon with it, whilst not hurting the full timers. Think out loud here.

I think everyone's point especially mine is it's very difficult to take on work at your leisure with that kind of iron especially if the job requires hired help and you will be competing against guys that have to make that dollar to keep there machines

On the flip side is iron I have cause the job bought it and we might only use it once a year cause we dont chase that work but occasionally it falls in your lap

Once word gets out you have it and are willing to hire out you will get calls in my business it took 2 years to be taken seriously and 3 years before my number started getting around you can only cold call so many times looking for work with potential customers

fastline said:

I was quite stressed when I pecked out this thread. I have realized now that this is just something I will have to figure out on my own. I think my situation is probably too much to peck out on the net.

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I doubt it. There are many diverse contractors on this Forum that do many different things in many different fields with heavy equipment.

We have 2 - 27T machines both zero swing Cats. Great machines and I think I like our '11 321DL better than the '18 325FL. We do the bulk of our work with these two machines which is normally commercial demolition and site work including utilities. On occasion we'll rent larger hoes if we need more lifting capacity.

Don't own a lowboy as our jobs last from 1 to several months at a time so the numbers don't pencil out. We hire all our moves. The average move for one of our zero swings is $250-350 around our metro area - 30 miles +/- one way. Our average mob cost in our bid is $2000 in and $2000 out for all the equipment and labor. Mob day eats 24 man hours at a minimum - 3 guys 8 hours. At $40 per hour labor burden that's $960 a day.

I'm saying all of that in order to give some insight on the costs of owning larger equipment - the bigger you go the more expensive it is to own, operate, move and maintain. That's why I strictly do commercial/industrial work as I can't compete in the residential market. A guy with a 305 behind a pickup can put a driveway pipe in much, much cheaper than I can for example.

KSSS said:

I have read this a couple times and I am not yet able to wrap my head around what is trying to be accomplished.

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Amen to that!

fastline said:

I think my situation is probably too much to peck out on the net.

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Then you are vastly overthinking your situation, you've already said the $$$ doesn't matter.

fastline said:

In a nut shell, I was key on the biggest bridge in the biggest city in our state, and I have also manufactured aerospace parts for the biggest commercial jet in the sky

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There were multiple bidders on the bridge, and there were multiple bidders on the parts. The bridge would have gotten built without you, and so would have the parts. Maybe not as cheap, maybe not as well, but they build bridges in third world countries with sticks and shovels. No ones situation is as "unique" or unicorn as they think it is.

You want to be able to unload 27,000lbs at your shop. Everyone that does such things regularly, has a big forklift or a crane. Cranes/ forklifts pick things up, excavators dig holes in the ground. Lattice boom truck and crawlers go cheap if they have some age on them. Excavators stink for heavy unloading. When you have the arm up close where your best chart is, you're out of height. When you put the arm out, your out of capacity because its away from the machine. You can dig with a crane, with a clam or dragline, but its far from ideal. Right tool for the right job. Some part of that must just not make sense to you because you're special?

As all the dirt guys have pointed out, no one uses a 27 ton excavator for culverts or a septic tank. They are too big for casual use. The reason all those machines are "worn out", is not because everyone's a bunch of liars, its that the machines actually get used. Its a fixed cost, the owner needs return on investment, so the machines get used.

You don't seem to want to listen to the guys that dig for a living in your own area, or the ones on the internet. So here's your "real" answer:

You need a 27 ton excavator, that has 100hours on it and has only dug silt from a old creek bed. You will buy this machine for less than scrap price- they may pay you to take it - because they are tired of owning a perfect machine. You should charge $350 / hr. $2000 in and $2,000 out. You will dig no rocks, remove no trees or do anything else that may "abuse" the machine. All utilities, old foundations, and buried junk piles will be adequately marked and removed by someone else. You won't carry any insurance, and will be responsible for nothing. Fortunately you gave nothing for the excavator, so all income will be direct profit. Customers will provide fuel and oil changes on site, as well as fix and pay for all repairs onsite- it wouldn't have broken if you weren't doing their work. Your life will now be all sunshine and roses.

Well my main business is CNC machining. I own many machines. We are currently building a new shop on the farm so I can run the machine shop and farm. The lift capacity of the larger machine is really the only reason for a bigger machine. I think a 200-210 is really more ideal. We crane lift machines as we either sell one and buy anther, etc. Sometimes we will just set a machine on skates outside, then move with a smaller machine inside. We also need to offload very heavy items and raw stock off trucks at times.
Yes, cranes and forks are typical, and we have a 20T RT crane at another place. I cannot rely on a fork because of the rock driveway. Really tracks are the only think I know I can depend on. I know I can come up with a better solution BUT my goal here is the employ an excavator as a swiss army knife....doing the job of a digger, crane, and forklift at times. We also have a 10K forklift but would be very limited outdoors even being a solid pneumatic.

We have about 4000ft of trench to open for the new shop between utilities, solar, and geothermal stuff. None of that requires a big machine but to get it done efficiently, a 15-20T machine would be needed. We also need it to stand the building and such.

Our farming operation is tree farming and hay. I plan to use the aux hydros of the machine to develop specific tools to load hay faster and load trees. Again other machines can do this.

I hope some can understand what I am trying to do.... Use/own one machine instead of 5 specialty machines.

All of this still would not be daily hours for the machine. Just one of my personal business practices is I want to at least see an ROI on what I buy, then I can at least say "it paid for itself".... If I pay 50K for a machine, I'd ideally like to see that much returned. I do realize it will already be offsetting a TON of expense if I had to rent a machine for the work we need done right now.

I think what I am trying to ensure is that I can justify keeping it and not have to sell after some work tapers off here. I am hoping word of mouth will help as when wee had our other machine here, I had 2 guys just pull in asking, but one wanted to "rent" it.... These are usually people that don't know which side of the bucket does the digging.

I sort of did what you are thinking of doing 20 plus years ago. My main income comes from farming. Corn, beans, wheat and a few cows. I started with a 200 Hyundai excavator. Mostly for my own projects. Old trees, abandon farmsteads, rocks and projects around the farmstead. I currently have a 210 Volvo.
In my area it is easy to haul around. ND you can be 10ft wide with no special permits. plus 90% is gravel roads. Here it doesn't really matter if you are moving a 160 size or a 210 size machine.
I use it for all kinds of thing around the yard. Building fence, lifting broken equipment, cleaning feedlots, site prep for new buildings. they are kind of a swiss army knife around the yard.
Fast forward 20 some years, I do a fair amount of side jobs around the area. So i get what you mean by it can be relaxing, Most of my extra jobs are not on a schedule, neighbors will call for a job knowing that I will get to it sooner or later. If it has to be done at a time when I can't do it, Planting or harvest, I am honest and tell them I can not get it done in that time frame. I enjoy doing cleanup/dirt work, Especially when it it not high pressure and no one looking over your shoulder demanding you get it done by Friday.
I have a good relationship with the guys around me that all they do for a living is excavating. I will recommend them if I can"t do a job. sometimes they will give me a job if its closer to me than they are. Sometimes we work together on a big job.
I realize my situation is a little unique, but you could probably do something similar.
Good luck with whatever you decide.

Farmlund your post gave me a chuckle. Around the parts some full time excavators raise cattle as a hobby. It's common to see a crew cab flatbed with a cat tag on the front, fuel tank and tool boxes on the back with a pallet of salt tubs ratchet strapped down. I have several friends in the business that make their money moving dirt or trucking but really enjoy dealing with their cattle.

Ha, maybe I am doing it backwards CM. There is a lot of that here also. guys with regular jobs or businesses and 30 cows out back. The cow are sort of my dads deal. he is 84 and loves messing around with them. Keeps him alive I think. We just help with the hard stuff.

I guess I didn't really address your question about pricing the excavating jobs. When i started out i did alot by the hour, $100/hr or so 20 years ago. Now 90% of the time I just give an amount for the total job. Keep in mind its mostly farmstead cleanup and tree rows. Most are simple to estimate after you get some experience. I try to get at least $175-200hr now. I usually aim a little high on the estimate, if it goes easy I just bill a little less.
If I do bid a bigger job with footing, water lines sewer or something complicated than I will make a serious bid/estimate, with everything broke down by the item. I didn't take on any very complicated jobs till I had been doing it for around 10yrs.

To second what farmerlund said above - I find it hard to make money doing hourly work, much rather do a negotiated or hard bid job any day of the week.

Thirded. Once you've got a bit of experience, bid jobs tend to be more profitable in my experience. Hourly around here sucks, and no one wants to pay extra for a machine with a tiltrotator.

I was entertained by this thread. While reading it I could feel myself thinking very similarly on a new piece of equipment acquisition. We always want to justify an expense to the point we sometimes get tunnel vision. I think you have made your mind up. I am only basing my opinion on the evolution of the thread. So buy the excavator! Use it for all of your personal work, once complete offer your expertise and equipment for small local jobs. If it doesn't pan out send it on down the road.

As for lifting..... Pour a concrete pad big enough to unload deliveries with a forklift. This makes much more sense from an unloading stand point. You could pour a pad and pickup a cheap bigger forklift to use outside. If you drop one machine or one finished part that pad and forklift investment doesn't seem too far fetched. Or as you, or someone else, referenced an all terrain telehandler could be an option.

Now how many loads do I need to haul to convince my wife a dump truck makes sense in our driveway???

It's a different game if the primary use is for yourself, then just make some money on the side with it. Then I would say buy whatever will suit your needs the best, and still be able to hire it out to make it worthwhile. Assuming you won't move it yourself, it might be worth a call to people who move in your area how a machine a few tons bigger or smaller might make a big difference in moving costs though.

Just had my dump truck in for inspection, it ran a whole 1200 miles in the last year, but considering the convenience and it probably saved me $20k in moving costs, it's still well worthwhile. Long as you can justify the excavator and pay for it, why not. It's just one of those things if it doesn't run a lot, a few repairs on a 27 ton machine can get real expensive real quick so the first few years could hurt.

I think dirt work as a part-time gig can be great. That's how I got started, and if things are decent will be back homebuilding in 2022 and split my time between it and dirtwork. Makes it a lot easier to schedule too being a 1 man show if it's not always jobs back to back. Also once you've got a few years in and all the equipments paid for, it pays incredibly well you don't need to do a lot of jobs.

CM1995 said:

To second what farmerlund said above - I find it hard to make money doing hourly work, much rather do a negotiated or hard bid job any day of the week.

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NepeanGC said:

Thirded. Once you've got a bit of experience, bid jobs tend to be more profitable in my experience. Hourly around here sucks, and no one wants to pay extra for a machine with a tiltrotator.

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Main problem is so many people are so dahm cheap. One customer had the nerve to complain about $400 for bringing out my 6 ton mini for an electrical trench (this was an add on to excavation or I would never bother at that price). Like they think you're getting rich at $400. It's 3 hours by the time you start loading up at yard until you're back. I rarely do hourly work, i'd rather let my equipment sit then waste a bunch of time for a few hundred bucks, and those are the jobs it takes even more time to collect.

suladas said:

Main problem is so many people are so dahm cheap. One customer had the nerve to complain about $400 for bringing out my 6 ton mini for an electrical trench

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You need to change who you work for. I have repeat commercial customers that understand what it cost to build a project and aren't scared to spend the money to get it done on time and on budget. I know this sounds simple but find customers who know how to make money with the projects you build for them.

CM1995 said:

You need to change who you work for. I have repeat commercial customers that understand what it cost to build a project and aren't scared to spend the money to get it done on time and on budget. I know this sounds simple but find customers who know how to make money with the projects you build for them.

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Same reason I got away from track work way to cut throat

Now we do really well by the hour but we built our buissness for ot and we run small iron and have built a reputation of doing quality work in tough conditions and its jobs you would never bid to small

Flat Thunder Channel said:

Now how many loads do I need to haul to convince my wife a dump truck makes sense in our driveway???

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You can't convince your wife it makes sense. I've had a dump truck for 2 years now. It has paid for itself with what I've done with it, and my wife still looks at it with contempt.

To answer a few questions. Yes, I do realize that pouring concrete in certain areas will allow forklift action, and that might well be a longer term solution, but if you price just the mud vs what I am buying the hoe for, I think most would understand I am doing this right. Sometimes with offloads, lifting is just safer and easier than forks. Sometimes there are lift eyes and if a machine has a really high CG, forking just gets my nerves worked up.

As to wife approval, that is one thing I have written off, even being late 30s. I am not bringing my drama to the site but IMO, this reads like a text book where men get to choose between success or long term ass. I didn't realize how easy life could be once I wrote "happily ever after" out of the books for a lifetime. New tail comes around, they are intrigued by all the "toys" and ask "how did you buy all this?".... They leave shortly when I tell them it's amazing what you can own when you no longer have to buy fur coats, cars, and steak dinners at fancy restaurants.....Just wish I could share wisdom with the younger guys, but that is a chapter that is just set on repeat....

" but it is really hard to compete with a machine that can lift 27K, go 30ft in the air, and dig."
An excavator makes a **** poor crane. The range of operation that it can move big weight is woefully over rated in the charts, they do best with the bucket 10' or less off the ground. Add in some rigging and now you can't get that top-heavy machine off a truck bed to save your life. Don't buy a big excavator for that kind of primary work.
I say this as the guy who will try and do everything I can with an excavator because it just should. Then I get my arse kicked like today, when I was trying to drag out a loaded 40 yard trash dumpster with the 120 and running smack up against that chart problem. I've slung plenty of 6000 pound steel sheets around on a short chain with it, but I had to have the bucket 10' up to clear the dumpster.
If you are getting a machine to do bid work, something smaller will work more jobs.

skyking1 said:

" but it is really hard to compete with a machine that can lift 27K, go 30ft in the air, and dig."
An excavator makes a **** poor crane. The range of operation that it can move big weight is woefully over rated in the charts, they do best with the bucket 10' or less off the ground. Add in some rigging and now you can't get that top-heavy machine off a truck bed to save your life. Don't buy a big excavator for that kind of primary work.
I say this as the guy who will try and do everything I can with an excavator because it just should. Then I get my arse kicked like today, when I was trying to drag out a loaded 40 yard trash dumpster with the 120 and running smack up against that chart problem. I've slung plenty of 6000 pound steel sheets around on a short chain with it, but I had to have the bucket 10' up to clear the dumpster.
If you are getting a machine to do bid work, something smaller will work more jobs.

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27klbs with a 27 ton machine does seem like way too much. I know my 210 with thumb without bucket will lift 9500lbs at max reach and just starts to tip over the side, but I highly doubt it would lift 20k very well to be of use. If I was lifting that kind of big weight much with a hoe i'd be getting a lifting adapter made up to reduce weight and make it safe. That's way too much weight to be trusting on the eye of a bucket or what not.