1969 Case 580 CK 188 Power Shuttle diesel won't start

I know the rebuilt pump was professionally tested as part of $700+ rebuild. Are you suggesting the new injectors (with head rebuild that ended with still easy start - until wheel incident) is a separate test needed?

Thanks for more detailed explanation- that potentially ties all issues together so worth following before diving into motor.

Even with new injectors, get them tested, it's easy if you have them out already, or easy to get out, not stuck like the first time. You can remove two and hook them back up out pointing away from the engine to observe the spray pattern easy enough. Don't bend the line, loosen the other end and rotate.

We had all four injectors tested: three were perfect; one was mostly plugged and drippy. Not fixable so ordered replacement - mechanic didn’t think one plugged injector would cause new starting problems. Also drained fuel tank so will eliminate that potential issue for when get new injector. If still not starting we don’t see option other than rings - just hard to imagine crash when wheel popped off causing big problem in rings.

Have you observed the spray pattern of the all the injectors since you bought the new one (injector) ?
I find it hard to believe the crash had any effect on the piston ring ?

I did not see the spray pattern myself but the long time tractor mechanic that tested the injectors specifically said “thE spray pattern, pop off pressure, and holding was fine On three of the four injectors.“

We also doubt rings are problem but have run out of our ideas and those from this helpful forum.
Ken

We have now flushed the fuel tank, added fresh fuel, and replaced the one injector that tested bad - but still no start without using ether when cold. After running while and shut off it won't restart (like it did before wheel broke off), even if using propane torch (afraid to try ether when warm - didn't work when tried month ago). Not seeing any other options other than throwing in away or throwing more money at it, we've ordered in frame kit to replace sleeves, pistons, rings, bearings. :-((

Here’s hoping for the best.!!!
Good Luck..

Update after replacing cylinders, sleeves, bearings, & rebuilding starter. Damn thing still won't start: cranks really good with rebuilt starter/new battery; tried to fire/start once with ether after neither pre-heat or propane torch to intake manifold in room about 45 degree's. Looks like unspent fuel vapor from exhaust. Loosened fuel lines to ensure fuel flow to injectors and fuel return line - all good (flowing, not squirting)(prior to rebuild when running and check fuel lines ahead of injectors fuel would squirt when loosen line). Rechecked valves all at .014 per book. As reminder, prior to rebuild it would only start with ether, and then only when cold - seemed to run smooth - compression all even but low so rebuild motor seemed only option left. Also as reminder it used to start fine before wheel lugs popped and one hub (now replaced) crashed to ground. We didn't move/adjust the fuel pump (also rebuilt & new injectors) while rebuilding the motor. We didn't take timing gear cover off to examine that for damage cause it ran fine (after getting started) - didn't think that could be issue but now wondering because that's only thing we haven't explored - starting to think just have very expensive boat anchor??? Appreciate any thoughts for the experts out there.

I'm no expert, but I wish you would have removed the camshaft and replaced the bearings. If you had you would have been able to examine and measure the lobes on it. There is an outside chance it is actually broken.

I would suggest that you remove the injector pump and UPS it to thepumpguysc. It will be the best thing IMHO you can do now.
I base that on the fact you had to use ether before the crash.

I have to ask if you have checked the timing marks on the gears, and flywheel? I know there is some movement in the pump drive shaft that possibly could have allowed the gears to skip throwing your timing off. Timing off would cause hard/ no start.
You said new injectors, were they tested for correct pop off pressure? I have 4 brand new injectors I just tested tonight and they were supposed to be the right part # which would pop at ~2800psi. Mine brand new ones were all over the place. 1st one was 3100psi, 2nd 3500 psi, etc.. I had to adjust them all and the old injector I took out only would squirt a stream so no wonder that cylinder ran funny

Update on our progress/lack thereof this weekend - hopefully some more clues for you experts:
Sure we got the timing all done correctly this time: adjusted valves at TDC on compression; turned flywheel to TDC on exhaust and adjusted rest of valves; moved flywheel to 8 degree's BTDC and checked fuel pump which was aligned; turned flywheel 2 full rotations and rechecked fuel pump was still aligned; made sure fuel lines to injectors putting out fuel; connected to injectors; heated intake manifold; strong battery cranking that showed fuel vapor from exhaust pipe BUT NOT FIRING AT ALL. All valves opening/closing as cranking.

Decided to recheck compression (hadn't done after installing new cylinders & Sleeves). Got 50# on #1 and 300# on 2-4. rechecked #1, got same reading - added some oil top of cylinder and got 90-100#. As reminder we got 260-275 # all 4 before replacing cylinders - thinking that was warm motor but not remembering for sure. Today's readings all on cold motor - specs call for 400 PSI at sea level which fits Olympia on warm motor - don't find info on what new cylinders should be on cold motor? We did not disassemble piston/sleeve's to check for opposing ring gaps - assumed done right at factory - instructions didn't say anything about checking for proper ring gap opposite alignments but wondering if this is our only problem? Seems it should start/fire with 3 new pistons/sleeves but maybe not.

What the hell are we missing?
Exasperated,
Ken Miller 360-999-8595

Head gasket or sleeve issue?

PS - tried something else recommended by friend before we quit for the weekend - maybe forever

We put a turkey baster full of oil in each cylinder (thought needed enough to over flow cup on top of cylinder). Then did pressure tests again. ALL cylinders test at 650-700 PSI compared to book spec of 400. #1 cylinder that had very low pressure above - took longer but did get up to same (650) PSI. Thinking this was answer, reconnected fuel lines making sure fuel coming out of lines at injector before connecting. Heated the intake manifold with torch. STILL DIDN'T FIRE at all - this time didn't even notice any fuel vapors coming out of exhaust pipe (maybe too much oil in cylinders???).

My son learned a lot about diesels and I learned a lot about how much my son loves me to come work on this tractor almost every weekend but something else is wrong that we aren't getting. Thanks again for any other advice.
Ken

Ken Miller said:

Decided to recheck compression (hadn't done after installing new cylinders & Sleeves).
We did not disassemble piston/sleeve's to check for opposing ring gaps - assumed done right at factory - instructions didn't say anything about checking for proper ring gap opposite alignments but wondering if this is our only problem? Seems it should start/fire with 3 new pistons/sleeves but maybe not.

What the hell are we missing?
Exasperated,
Ken Miller 360-999-8595

Click to expand...

I edited your post to what puzzles me.
How did you install the new pistons onto the connecting rods without "disassembling" the pistons and sleeves ?
Ring gaps and the gap orientation to the other rings on the piston should have been checked
before the piston & rod assembly was put in the sleeve. Always, no exceptions.
Remove the injector on #1 cylinder, put the cylinder at TDC. Then apply air into it and listen for where the air escaping.
Remove the oil filler cap. the air most likely is going into the crankcase. Unless you have a pooched valve or the adjustment of it.

The pistons and sleeves came as an assembled kit so just had to get the old out and slide/drive new sleeves (& pistons in).

Based on about test after adding oil and #1 PSI went way up - should I still do that test? Please clarify "pooched valve" or "the adjustment of it". We did follow all the book steps to adjust all valves (half at TDC on Compression & other half at TDC on Exhaust). Starting and running fine before crash explained in early posts - then only start when cold and with ether - had fuel pump rebuilt in Seattle - still no change - replaced all sleeves/pistons -went in tight but w/o problem - new head gasket, bolts all tightened per book sequence and double checked - still no change except now can't get to start at all and don't want to use ether on new pistons.

Valves all open/close normally as far as can tell so cam can't be broken we don't think. Unless missing something else wondering if crash could have cause cam/timing gear to jump tooth - but not finding anything think that possible - and looks like lot of work to check that out just to eliminate rare possibility(?) because don't now what else to do.

Thanks for all your clarifications/ thoughts.

Ken

Not sure what pouring all that oil in the cylinders was trying to accomplish. If cylinder 1 is at 50 psi you have a major problem. Perform a cylinder leakage test and listen for where the air goes.

It should still start with one dead cylinder. Are you sure you have fuel getting in the cylinders?

A pooched valve -->
Stem bent, not unusual in high hour engines. I saw a lot of valve heads wobble when they were in a Sioux valve machine for grinding them.
A notch burnt in the valve face.
Also it could have a notch or low area in the circumference of valve seat thus allowing a loss of compression.
A turkey baster of oil added to the cylinders would produce worthless information.
Actually it could cause a connecting rod to bend from a hydro-lock situation.

Concluding remarks to the tractor problem thread:
With the very excellent (phone & then personal help) advice from "Blue Ox" we finally solved the starting problem we had before and after replacing all the cylinders. As reminder: After the crash last summer, we broke something loose in the fuel pump. We rightly then had the fuel pump rebuilt, flushed all fuel lines, & rechecked the injectors but still found it would only start when cold and with ether; running out of ideas we then replaced all cylinders (250-265 PSI) to get higher compression thinking that might be the problem; after replacing cylinders we couldn't get motor to fire/start at all despite checking and rechecking the timing, re-adjusting valves, and ensuring fuel getting to injectors.

With the superior help from "Blue Ox" we ensured getting ALL the air out of the fuel lines by loosening all 4 fuel lines at the injector and cranking motor for a very long time (presumably getting ALL the air out of the pump/lines); tightened the connectors; and the engine started (struggled initially but easily thereafter). YEAH!!!!!

After running a few minutes a secondary problem occurred we likely wouldn't have solved w/o the diagnostic skills/experience of the "Blue Ox". The motor would just shut down suddenly, like out of fuel but more sudden - and would restart easily - and stop again. Rechecked fuel flow from tank. Then noticed slight puff of black smoke just as motor quit. At first feared potential new piston locking. One time tractor seemed to shudder just a little so rechecked hydraulic fluids levels and found shuttle clutch/transmission was low (Duh after replacing cylinders) - after which motor continued to restart easily and run until shutting it off. After couple hours professional help from retired mechanic we met on this website we were all doing the HAPPY DANCE!!

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR ADVICE OVER LAST SEVERAL MONTHS - SPECIAL THANKS TO THE BLUE OX - A VERY SPECIAL MAN IN MANY WAYS.