1969 Case 580 CK 188 Power Shuttle diesel won't start

We're missing an important part of this story, we just don't know what it is. How long did the tractor sit after the incident before it was started again? what else happened? before, during or since?

Update on our tractor after today's work. Rechecked, & beefed up battery/battery cable & connections to ensure strong starter - no change as still will not start cold (60 degrees) until/unless add ether. Seems to run fine - will try to post link to YouTube tried to learn today. After warming up shut off and checked/slight adjustments to valves. Oil on all lifters but seems less that novice would expect - although Oil pressure gauge registers high. Then tried to restart without success and chose not to use ether again as wanted to redo last weeks compression tests based on info from you all. Removed all injectors and checked compression: all cylinders between 260-280 PSI. Then put prox 1/4 cup motor oil in each cylinder before retesting compression on all cylinders: All cylinders now between 350-370 seemingly confirming need for new rings/sleeve/etc???? (although this still doesn't explain why started/ran fine before front wheel popped off????

Another potential clue(??): earlier when taking starter off noticed hydraulic fluid in Bell Housing don't know if that's normal/ok - if something major maybe we don't want to throw another $1,000 at rebuilding motor? Thoughts?

Finally, We assume if putting in new rings probably should do the cylinder sleeves also? Does this take special tool of some kind; if so is this affordable to buy for single job or can normally rent somewhere. Recall that when replacing head (had to clean out/hone two cylinders full of water when first got the "free" backhoe) noticed the sleeves sticking up a little above block - presume that normal?

Adding oil to the cylinders also reduces the volume of the combustion chamber and will increase your compression readings. The add oil and see if the numbers rise is an age old diagnostic method. When you have a large combustion chamber it can help but with small chambers the oil will always give you a higher reading even in a perfect engine.

Your best bet is to perform a cylinder leakdown test. If you buy a gauge it might be marked with Red, Yellow Green ranges in addition to the actual percent of leakage. These zone are nuts. "Low" allows up to 40% leakage, "Moderate" is up to 70%. If you have 40% leakage you have a worn engine or a major problem. If you are about 10% or so you are good. Much like compression the variation also tell a story. If you have high leakage listen for where the air is leaking from. Make sure you buy one that uses 100psi to pressure test with. Some use only 40psi and I can tell you from experience they will not find leaks that 100psi will.

You can also look inside using a borescope. You can buy them cheap from eBay or Amazon and they pair via Bluetooth to a phone.

A sleeve puller is nice. Any machine shop can make one. Just take a new sleeve to them. I only had one made and that was many years ago.
A brass drift pin applied to the bottom of the sleeve in the block will drive them out with a few hammer taps.
Some Case engines have wet bell housings and require a sealed starting motor.

It's hard to tell what's wrong with an engine from a video of one that's running perfectly??? You have it running fine, does it operate fine? have adequate power? have you checked the blowby when it's nice and hot? Is it using oil? if it's not using oil and not blowing oil splatters out the blowby tube, I wouldn't even think about doing anything internal. compression doesn't typically go down evenly, you'll usually see one or two that are way below spec, and a few barely hanging on if the engine is old and dying.

You could post that same angle video of the engine trying to start it when it won't. A warm afternoon when it absolutely should start easy, battery warm, engine warm.

How long did the tractor sit after the incident before it was started again? what else happened? before, during or since?

Delmer said:

It's hard to tell what's wrong with an engine from a video of one that's running perfectly??? You have it running fine, does it operate fine? have adequate power? have you checked the blowby when it's nice and hot? Is it using oil? if it's not using oil and not blowing oil splatters out the blowby tube, I wouldn't even think about doing anything internal. compression doesn't typically go down evenly, you'll usually see one or two that are way below spec, and a few barely hanging on if the engine is old and dying.

You could post that same angle video of the engine trying to start it when it won't. A warm afternoon when it absolutely should start easy, battery warm, engine warm.

How long did the tractor sit after the incident before it was started again? what else happened? before, during or since?

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We got this tractor after it had sat not running for 10 years with exhaust pipe open to rain. after cleaning/honing out two cylinders and having head rebuilt & new injectors is would start and run fine but lots of other issues so only ran it few minutes - including when front wheel popped off and axle hit payment. Sat for 1-2 weeks to get wheel hub replaced and then wouldn't start like before - nothing else happened - so then went through lots of $ & time working the fuel pump/lines to ensure no problem there - but still no change in starting problem. I'll attach another video of driving it short distance to get inside the barn - don't have one of trying to start but know that get a little smoke out of exhaust when trying. Answers to your questions: running fine and has adequate power as near as can tell. Never got it real hot, or check blowby (nothing obvious) and not ran enough to know about oil use.

That's a little bit of important information. Anything is possible and you could need a rebuild?

I'd use it a while and see what shakes out before fixing it one major component at a time.

taking more backhoe hoses in today for replacement - each time get it started another hose breaks. Hindsight says should have bought all new hoses at beginning - penny wise pound foolish. Maybe if have to cut losses having backhoe in good working order might have more value. Also know we have some leaking cylinders and no brakes for some reason so maybe go do some digging before diving into motor further is a good idea.

Have u tried advancing the pump timing a smidge.??
Make a scratch mark on the inj pump and block as a starting point..
Now loosen the pump mounting nuts & turn the pump, (top cover away from the engine) about a dimes width & tighten back down..
That might help.. Good luck..

Yes we have adjusted timing of fuel pump - running smoothest at current setting. Will try to upload video of valves working as cranking with starter.

Front valves also seem to be working right

Did a blowby test today after removing rocker arms so all valves supposed to be closed. Had prox 100 PSI air supply. All four cylinders had similar air flow out of crankcase. Cylinder #1 & #2 additionally had a very slight/little airflow out of intake valves. As reminder compression test was 260-280 dry and 350-370 after putting oil on top of cylinders. Prior to having the heads rebuilt we had to clean/hone Cylinder #1 & #2 because they had filled with water before we got the tractor – is that a missing clue? Still doesn’t seem to explain why easy to start before wheel popped off dropping hub to cement – didn’t die and thereafter only start when cold, AND with ether. Definitely rings????

Perhaps something was knocked outa whack in the injection pump.
pumpguysc may have thoughts on that.
I know nothing about working on them, but I wouldn't rule out that possibility in the pump.
I ran 3 or 4 different Caterpillar dozers that got to where they would need ether to start cold or hot.
The mechanics would take the ip off and send it somewhere (?)
It would be reinstalled and no more ether was needed.

Our original thinking was also about fuel pump as you suggest however after two rebuilds ($700) and checking all lines we believe that potential issue is not the problem. Afraid will replace sleeves,rings, & pistons only to determine we “fixed” something else - that wasn’t the problem but don’t know what else to try first???

hard to imagine rings or debris broke loose on all cylinders when wheel fell off but maybe???

I can’t think of anything that would cause this problem other than a pinched line or stuck/sticking metering valve..
u can tell if it’s a mv by removing the top cover & pushing the mv w your finger.. it should return under its own power after u stroke it..
Personally I don’t like those compression readings..

you do have the intake manifold open to the atmosphere, right? you said it leaked out the intake.

Those cranking clips sound like there's very little resistance, just an even whine, it should go rrrRRrrrRRrrrRR...

nothing makes any sense why it would start before dropping and not after. How long did it sit between starting and not starting? have you tried fresh fuel?

Has the the fuel injectors been tested by a professional ?

The fuel pump was professionally rebuilt and tested. After reinstalling we tested fuel delivery at each injector by loosening connections to confirm fuel delivery as cranking. I don’t know if this covers the metering valve thought above? - my son likely understands your suggestion.

Yes we have hose off intake manifold we doing last blow by test.

when we got tractor a year ago it had some fuel in tank - we didn’t drain old out but did add 5 gallons fresh - but did check all lines, drained bottom bowl and replace fuel filters. Even though seems to run well after starting could a mix of old and fresh fuel be potential starting problem? Easy enough to do before diving into ring replacements if you think real chance that could be issue?

The spray pattern of the fuel injectors is critical for easy starting.
Any time an injector pump is rebuilt the injectors should be tested or replaced.
A shop not far from me tests them for free.
Unless the old fuel was contaminated with algae or some kind of crap you should be OK mixing the new stuff in.

I think checking the injectors and new fuel are the only potentially logical things left to check. If you mixed fresh fuel with old fuel, it could start well for a month. It could also age prematurely because it's been innoculated with stale fuel. Stale fuel can make starting difficult in marginal conditions. The injectors being opened up exposes them to contamination, old fuel could gunk them up, etc.

The compression does seem to be the main problem, these are secondary, but if it runs acceptably, then I'd run it at least to find out what the machine needs in addition to rings/pistons/sleeves. You may never need to rebuild it if it runs good enough.

It runs fine, so the metering valve is functioning eventually, when you shut it off, push the shut off rod back in after the engine is off, then it will be in position to start and won't stick off. And run fresh fuel.