I won a Skid Steer at an auction but have just discovered the meter has been tampered with badly.

Hello i am in a bit of a pickle currently with a Skid steer I won at a Richie bros auction. The hour meter and website reported 2k hours yet upon further investigation (i actually dont want to reveal too many details because I am afraid to be singled out) The machine was sold last year with nearly 10k hours on the meter. I have not paid for it yet, and the auction did not have me sign any physical documents (other than clicking a few boxes online through their website and enter things like my name and home address, didnt provide my social or license number). Should I be the one on the hook for not wanting to pay up? I have not paid for it and there is no way I can purchase it now with such hours and I even found the listing online for about half of what I paid for it. How do I dig myself out of this hole? is it possible that RB can sue me even though, again I did not physically sign anything? What kind of attorney should I contact?

Just so that I am completely transparent there is a box that says hours on a machine cannot be verified which is posted on every listing of every machine but that doesnt mean that something that has been tampered with can be legally sold without fully disclosing it.

My first step would be to contact R/B with the evidence you have to prove the hours are inaccurate. Most auction houses require that their listings be accurate to preserve their reputation. They may be willing to work with you.

You will have to read the fine print, but pretty typical to have to pay a hefty fee to not complete purchase, I’ve seen up to 4K or so. Good luck.

In agreeing to the bidding form, you have legally bound yourself. You agree when registering for the auction.

Hour meters are a replaceable item, and the auction company has no real way to know actual hours. You evidently did your research after the auction, rather than before. The idea that "I gave too much, so now I shouldn't have to pay" is absolutely ridiculous. Auctions aren't amazon or walmart.

Put on your big boy pants. Ritchie didn't make you put in your bid.

Steve Frazier said:

My first step would be to contact R/B with the evidence you have to prove the hours are inaccurate. Most auction houses require that their listings be accurate to preserve their reputation. They may be willing to work with you.

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Thanks this is what was on my mind but I need to have a plan b in mind in case they are not as benevolent and tell me I still have to pay up.. I know that if they do take that route I will most likely be banned from bidding ever again but its still better than throwing 25 grand down the drain.. What concerns me is whether I can get sued for not paying.

crane operator said:

In agreeing to the bidding form, you have legally bound yourself. You agree when registering for the auction.

Hour meters are a replaceable item, and the auction company has no real way to know actual hours. You evidently did your research after the auction, rather than before. The idea that "I gave too much, so now I shouldn't have to pay" is absolutely ridiculous. Auctions aren't amazon or walmart.

Put on your big boy pants. Ritchie didn't make you put in your bid.

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you would not be saying such BS if it were your 25 grand on the table. It wasnt an investment gone south or a streak of bad luck, it was an outright fraudulent sale. Tell me you selling any equipment out in missouri id love to come check it out some time.

'Bids are irrevocable, and all sales are final. If you're the highest bidder when the auctioneer announces that an item has been sold, you're the new owner of that item.

Everything sells "as is, where is"
We recommend that you visit the auction site to inspect any items you'd like to buy before bidding on auction day. You may also send someone to the site to conduct the inspection on your behalf'

Information easily found on the Richie Bros website. Be a man and pay your dues. This is what's wrong with the world today. People do not own up to their decisions / actions. Mean what you say and do what you mean. Don't pick and choose actions based upon what's convenient for you at the time. :/

That's not always true. On another forum someone bought a high end inverter welder at RB that had obvious internal problems that couldn't be detected and were never disclosed to RB or the seller. RB refunded the buyers money but may not legally had to. In that instance it was a fairly clear case of misrepresentation and there was no way to try it out before purchase. RB did the right thing. An hour meter being wrong I don't thinks equates to gross misrepresentation. Maybe the hour meter had gone around once or was replaced? Did RB offer times when an in person physical inspection could be performed? Where did you see the same machine listed for 1/2 what you paid? Buyers remorse isn't a good enough reason to back out of a sale. You need to reveal all the details you are reluctant to in order to get any advice that may help you. Curious what the actual machine is? If you agreed to RB's terms you could potentially be sued.

Unfortunately you can’t really rely on hour meters since most are replaceable

I had to replace one a few years ago because it degraded to the point that I couldn’t read it. I use it to “time” the hours between maintenance items

I wrote down approximately what the old hours were next to the new one.

some things to look for to corroborate the hour meter readings are markings on filters (I write down the hours on the filter when I change them)

samhaley said:

you would not be saying such BS if it were your 25 grand on the table. It wasnt an investment gone south or a streak of bad luck, it was an outright fraudulent sale.

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I've spent quite a bit more than that at auction. And there's a lot of guys that have spent way more than me.

Here's how the real auction world works: Someone has equipment that they don't have the time to fix, or can't deal with selling personal, and dealing with tire kickers and buyers who want perfect equipment at fire sale prices. So they drag it to auction. Its gone and its no longer their problem.

Here's how as a buyer it works: You see the pictures, figure they have repainted it or hid the sins with dirt and grease. Whatever year the equipment is, figure at least 1,000 to 1,500 hours per year- no matter what the hour meter says. You need to buy it at a price that you can afford to fix whatever is wrong with it (because there's always things wrong with it, that's why its at auction). So you need to buy it cheap, so you can afford to fix it, and still have a deal, or can afford the loss. If you can't handle those kind of things, you shouldn't be buying at a auction. This isn't amazon with free returns with no shipping costs.

If you aren't happy, you still owe them the money. So yes, you do need to put on your big boy pants, at auction no one else is looking out for you but you. You can easily put it up for sale again, through them or somewhere else. It will cost you a little $$, but chalk it up as a learning experience. You gave that much for it, and someone else was bidding against you, so there is at least one other buyer out there for it.

Good luck.

crane operator said:

I've spent quite a bit more than that at auction. And there's a lot of guys that have spent way more than me.

Here's how the real auction world works: Someone has equipment that they don't have the time to fix, or can't deal with selling personal, and dealing with tire kickers and buyers who want perfect equipment at fire sale prices. So they drag it to auction. Its gone and its no longer their problem.

Here's how as a buyer it works: You see the pictures, figure they have repainted it or hid the sins with dirt and grease. Whatever year the equipment is, figure at least 1,000 to 1,500 hours per year- no matter what the hour meter says. You need to buy it at a price that you can afford to fix whatever is wrong with it (because there's always things wrong with it, that's why its at auction). So you need to buy it cheap, so you can afford to fix it, and still have a deal, or can afford the loss. If you can't handle those kind of things, you shouldn't be buying at a auction. This isn't amazon with free returns with no shipping costs.

If you aren't happy, you still owe them the money. So yes, you do need to put on your big boy pants, at auction no one else is looking out for you but you. You can easily put it up for sale again, through them or somewhere else. It will cost you a little $$, but chalk it up as a learning experience. You gave that much for it, and someone else was bidding against you, so there is at least one other buyer out there for it.

Good luck.

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Great, your solution is to basically bend over for RB and whatever scammer on the other end wanted to make a quick buck selling their piece of sh!t and figured the best way to do that was to roll back some dials and voila now its magically worth 2x as much. This is why this country is going to hell because there are no honest men anymore or men for that matter that have enough balls to stand up for their self and let the dirt bags walk all over them with their fists down. The most absurd thing is after telling me to fall through being a victim of a dirt bag scam that if I feel so bad about it I should cut my losses and simply become the grease ball by finding some sucker to scam right back by "putting it for sale again". Listen I heard enough of what you had to say. Move on to another thread.

samhaley said:

Great, your solution is to basically bend over for RB and whatever scammer on the other end wanted to make a quick buck selling their piece of sh!t and figured the best way to do that was to roll back some dials and voila now its magically worth 2x as much. This is why this country is going to hell because there are no honest men anymore or men for that matter that have enough balls to stand up for their self and let the dirt bags walk all over them with their fists down. The most absurd thing is after telling me to fall through being a victim of a dirt bag scam that if I feel so bad about it I should cut my losses and simply become the grease ball by finding some sucker to scam right back by "putting it for sale again". Listen I heard enough of what you had to say. Move on to another thread.

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The same could be said about your integrity agreeing to the terms of the auction and then backing out. What if it went the other way and the machine was much better then you thought during the bidding, would you be ok with them canceling the sale?

I deeply sympathize with your dilemma and I agree with you that this is what is wrong with the world. But the fact is the whole history of man has had its scammers and scams. And the other fact is. You didn't do your homework and expected honesty from a sales forum known to sell something that appears to be something other than what it is. Did they advertise it as a low hour machine? If so you have some recourse. If not then you own it. Richie Brothers has always taken in machines cleaned them up and give it a Dupont overhaul. That isn't dishonest it's a sales tactic. It is ultimately up to you to determine whether you are getting what you want. I have been paid great money to do inspections of equipment at auction so the buyer can make a informed decision. But I won't pressure you to do anything that you don't want to do. The right thing to do is to take the loss and move on.

I hate it for you, but having bought a few items at auction I fully realized at a RB auction I had the ability to inspect it. Should I choose to not do so, then that is on me. We all can see that the RB "inspection" isn't much more than a glance. Now- I've bought Iron Planet and they back up their inspections. But, that's not how this one played out.

I buy a lot at auctions. Everything from heavy equipment to industrial tooling and auto parts. At EVERY auction the terms are always stated, announced and written down. Before the auction the auction er asks if anyone needs clarification. They sell the stuff. At any point durning the auction question can and are asked. Many places record the entire auction.

In all cases, sales are final. The only exceptions I have seen are when the things pictured or described ended up going missing. One auction for auto parts was sold by the piece with guaranteed quantities, so you paid more or less total at the end. Otherwise you bought it, you own it.

Especially at places like RB it is important to do an inspection and know what you are looking at. If you don’t know pay for someone to do a survey. Many buyers bring an operator and a mechanic. They bring code readers to plug in.

You may not like the advice you are getting but I agree, you own it.

Knowing the problems that equipment can have and the 'horse traders' that are out there, I can't imagine ever spending thousands of dollars on something without verifying before hand what someone is telling you.

samhaley said:

Just so that I am completely transparent there is a box that says hours on a machine cannot be verified which is posted on every listing of every machine but that doesnt mean that something that has been tampered with can be legally sold without fully disclosing it.

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I can understand the point about finding out after the fact that the hours are not what you and RB had hoped they were but do you really expect for RB or Iron Planet to spend hours researching each and every machine they have on their sites?

I have a Sportster sitting in my garage and after ridding it for around 95,881 miles the speedometer simply rattled itself to bits inside. So I went online to find a replacement. Tried a new aftermarket speedo, new ones no longer made, and it only lasted a few weeks so my next option was to locate a good used one and I got lucky and found a guy who had one off a wrecked bike with 23,073 miles on the OD. So now if I were to drop dead this afternoon and wife, who probably has no idea I had replaced the speedometer years ago, was to put it in an auction and someone inspected it and saw the odometer was showing 45,095 miles they might assume that was the correct miles and sell it with that in mind. Then if after the auction the person buying it happened to go on Heavy Equipment Forums and read this post do you really think the auction company should be obligated to refund the selling price?

Just saying that there is a difference between tampering with a meter with the intent to deceive a buyer and someone just making a repair to a piece of equipment and there not being a paper trail that notes when something was fixed and why. Now if you can hire an investigator who can track everyone who has owned this machine since new and determine that the hour meter was replaced at some specific point and this was done with the express intent to hid the total hours you may have a leg to stand on.

I can say that in the 40+ years I have worked on heavy equipment I have replaced probably dozens of hour meters, some with new and some with used ones. At times the replacement meter was actually showing more hours that the one that failed. So now do I have to be worried five years after I retired that the 1845C the company sold at auction a couple months ago may not be listed with the correct hours because no one thought to dig through my old files to see if I had replaced the meter back in 1998 because a stone had broke the glass and meter was full of mud?

A friend who had an auto repair business used to say to people complaining about how much repairs can cost on a used vehicle, oh you wanted new with warranty... you need to go to Ron Hodgson (dealer) for that. An hour meter is the last thing to rely on on any used machine. RB even states they cannot verify the meter reading. They also advise to fully inspect machines you are considering purchasing. Unless you have the complete service history there is no real way to verify hours. A lot of places will replace the hour meter after an overhaul as well. How do you even turn back an hour meter? Could the hour meter have gone around once already? Hour meters can go bad too. I don't know why you're calling it a scam. It's an auction and a lot of people use them to get rid of machines they don't want to be bothered with anymore. Sometimes there are really good deals on really good equipment too. You would have to prove gross misrepresentation with intent to deceive and that would be extremely difficult to do because of a wrong hour meter reading.

There is a saying I came up with years ago when someone asks me about auction equipment and it goes like this..........."Auction!? You best EXPECT to get F%^&ed buying anything at an auction." Its just like ordering from a drive thru.........(best Joe Pesci voice).....You ALWAYS get F%^&ed at the drive thru!"

If I said once I said it a thousand times. There is a reason it went to auction. People don't sell their equipment because it's a good machine and someone else needs to have it. I'm not saying every machine is junk, but you must assume that it is. And you have to decide how much you want to pay for it and put into repairs. Inspections and cost benefit analysis are the homework I am talking about. Don't expect for someone to feel sorry for you because you made a hasty decision. I bet everyone on this forum has a story about not doing their due diligence and hastily bought something and soon regretted it. Who knows... maybe it's a decent machine and has been well taken care of. I personally never seen a 10,000 hour skidsteer. But with my personal experience with any skidsteer. It should at least had every component changed by 10k hours. People abuse the hell out of these things and I have changed all components on various machines with less hours than 10k hours.